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Television Low‑importance

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Infobox color, draft space

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What is the source for the infobox color User:AlexTheWhovian? Why does this article exist? It should be a draft. Calibrador (talk) 03:12, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-06-29T03:12:00.000Z","author":"Calibrador","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Calibrador-2016-06-29T03:12:00.000Z-Infobox_color,_draft_space","replies":[]}}-->

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Citation needed for Susan Walters as Natalie Martin?

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@AlexTheWhovian: Just curious... is a citation needed for a cast member if they have appeared in 1 or more episodes that have already aired? Don't the aired episodes themselves serve as the source for this kind of thing? Because on several other TV articles, I note a lack of sources for main and recurring cast members and I would assume this was only needed if people were listing future appearances in episodes that have not aired yet. In many cases, especially for recurring cast members who are not necessarily going to get written up in the press, the episodes themselves would be the only source for a person's inclusion in the cast (given IMDb is not considered reliable), correct? And there's no citation listed for Orny Adams on this page, I assume because his episodes as the coach have aired already. Similarly, once an episode has aired, we remove the source for its title and its airdate because it's no longer something that will happen but something that has. —Joeyconnick (talk) 19:45, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-12-26T19:45:00.000Z","author":"Joeyconnick","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Joeyconnick-2016-12-26T19:45:00.000Z-Citation_needed_for_Susan_Walters_as_Natalie_Martin?","replies":["c-AlexTheWhovian-2016-12-26T22:51:00.000Z-Joeyconnick-2016-12-26T19:45:00.000Z"]}}-->

Yes, a source is needed. No, we don't typically base content on other articles, but if we did, we we look at good articles, such as Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. (season 1) and it's cast section, and see that it is best to use references for the cast. We may still add references for future cast members, and should, but there is absolutely no reason to remove them once the episodes have aired. Episodes are only primary sources for themselves (that is, their titles, credits, etc), and not for referencing the cast. Orny Adams should also have a reference - I will tag him as citation-needed as well, then. Alex|The|Whovian^? 22:51, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-12-26T22:51:00.000Z","author":"AlexTheWhovian","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-AlexTheWhovian-2016-12-26T22:51:00.000Z-Joeyconnick-2016-12-26T19:45:00.000Z","replies":["c-Joeyconnick-2016-12-27T06:49:00.000Z-AlexTheWhovian-2016-12-26T22:51:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Alex|The|Whovian"}}-->

Okay, can you point me to where this is laid out? I've checked MOS:TV but I don't see it mentioned there. Specifically, when we create cast lists for a show or a season, we may have a source for whether someone is going to appear on the show but their status as either main or recurring (or guest)—and the order of their appearance in the main cast list (if they are main cast)—comes, from what I can tell, directly from the episodes themselves acting as primary sources for that info, so that seems to contradict the notion that episodes themselves are only ever sources for episode articles and is in fact a prime example of when they are primary sources for information about the cast in season and show articles. And of course when there aren't separate episode articles for all episodes, then at least the credits order of main cast can only be drawn from the episodes themselves. And it seems to me it would be quite possible for a main cast member to not be mentioned as such in any secondary source, especially if the show doesn't get a lot of press. Are we then to make it seem like their membership in the main cast is unconfirmed by tagging them with {{cn}} when episodes they've appeared in have already aired? Because that seems... wrong. In this case, both Susan Walters and Orny Adams have appeared in multiple already-aired season 6 episodes, but because we don't have a secondary source for that, they seem less legitimate inclusions than actors whose episodes haven't aired yet. Surely things in the past that have happened already should be presented with more definitiveness than things slated to happen in the future that have yet to occur (and could still possibly not occur, despite a secondary source indicating they will). Presence of an actor in a TV episode seems like a very straightforward, legitimate use of a primary source as per WP:PRIMARY... there's no analysis or interpretation going on in watching an episode and seeing who is listed in the credits.

And also, if there's no reason to remove the secondary sources from cast members once episodes have aired, why do we remove them from episode titles and airdates in season articles after episodes have aired? In particular, while the episodes themselves can sometimes serve as a primary source for their titles (if the title of the episode is included in the credits, which not all shows do) and their cast lists, they certainly don't contain any information (in and of themselves) as to when they were first aired. —Joeyconnick (talk) 06:49, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-12-27T06:49:00.000Z","author":"Joeyconnick","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Joeyconnick-2016-12-27T06:49:00.000Z-AlexTheWhovian-2016-12-26T22:51:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->