I just linked Deposit of faith to Sacred Tradition, but the sentence already has Sacred Tradition in it. This sentence, IMHO, is redundant in that the Deposit of Faith is the equivalent or same thing as Sacred Tradition...or is this incorrect thinking? --StormRider 18:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-16T18:14:00.000Z","author":"Storm Rider","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Storm_Rider-2009-06-16T18:14:00.000Z-Deposit_of_faith_-_intro","replies":["c-NancyHeise-2009-06-17T02:34:00.000Z-Storm_Rider-2009-06-16T18:14:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Storm"}}-->
After taking a break from this page and then reading it afresh, it still strikes me as very far from the NPOV Wikipedia is supposed to be written from. The four worst bits are:
1. the continued attempt to rope in secular historians to defend the view that the RCC was founded by Jesus.
2. the section on the church and 20th century politics which is incredibly selective and unbalanced (even in regard to Europe which it concentrates on to the exclusion of South America amongst other places).
3. the section on child sex abuse which is apologist in tone and see-saws wildly between presenting the allegations before seeking to rebut, deflect or diminish them.
4. the reference to the pontifical academy of science with its 'valuable insights'.
Honestly guys, parts of this 'encyclopaedic' article read like a promotional flyer from the Vatican. I think the only way it's going to improve is if more editors who are not practising Catholics begin contributing to it.Haldraper (talk) 09:00, 19 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-19T09:00:00.000Z","author":"Haldraper","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Haldraper-2009-06-19T09:00:00.000Z-Still_POV","replies":["c-Baccyak4H-2009-06-19T13:56:00.000Z-Haldraper-2009-06-19T09:00:00.000Z"]}}-->
I would do two things to improve this page.
Firstly, I would cut it back to facts concerning the Roman Catholic Church rather than contentious opinions, including those couched in weasel phrases such as 'claimed' or 'contended'.
Secondly, given the length of the page, I would remove the section on the history of the Church. There is a link to another page on this (which at a quick glance seems to avoid some of the POV issues we're discussing here). Looking at other Wiki pages, it seems to be common practice to move the history of organisations off their main page to avoid excessive length.Haldraper (talk) 16:33, 19 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-19T16:33:00.000Z","author":"Haldraper","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Haldraper-2009-06-19T16:33:00.000Z-Still_POV","replies":["c-Baccyak4H-2009-06-19T17:19:00.000Z-Haldraper-2009-06-19T16:33:00.000Z"]}}-->
Two things to bear in mind:
1. I have concentrated on the organisational history of the RCC rather than other extraneous matters, e.g. its role in the Spanish civil war, South American missions etc.
2. There would still of course be a link to the 'History of the RCC' page which includes the same material and much more at greater length.Haldraper (talk) 18:33, 21 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-21T18:33:00.000Z","author":"Haldraper","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Haldraper-2009-06-21T18:33:00.000Z-Suggested_shorter_summary_of_history_section","replies":[]}}-->
According to historians, the Apostles traveled to northern Africa, Asia Minor, Arabia, Greece, and Rome to found the first Christian communities. Early Christians refused to offer sacrifices to the Roman gods or to worship Roman rulers as gods and were thus subject to persecution.[223] This began under Nero in the first century and persisted through the great persecution of Diocletian and Galerius, which was seen as a final attempt to wipe out Christianity.[224] Nevertheless, Christianity continued to spread and was eventually legalized in 313 under Constantine's Edict of Milan.[225]
Early Middle Ages The Rule of St Benedict, composed by Benedict in 530, became a blueprint for the organization of monasteries throughout Europe.[244] The new monasteries preserved classical craft and artistic skills while maintaining intellectual culture within their schools, scriptoria and libraries. As well as providing a focus for spiritual life, they functioned as agricultural, economic and production centers, particularly in remote regions, becoming major conduits of civilization.[245] Eastern and Western Christendom grew apart in the 9th century. Conflicts arose over ecclesiastical jurisdiction in the Byzantine-controlled south of Italy, missionaries to Bulgaria and a brief schism revolving around Photios of Constantinople.[252][256] Although this was resolved, further disagreements led to Pope and Patriarch excommunicating each other in 1054, commonly considered the date of the East–West Schism.[257] The Western (Latin) branch of Christianity has since become known as the Catholic Church, while the Eastern (Greek) branch became known as the Eastern Orthodox Church.[258][259]
High Middle Ages At the end of the 13th century, Pope Boniface VIII was involved in a heated conflict with the French king. Subsequently, the Papacy came under French dominance, with Clement V in 1309 moving to Avignon, then located just outside the French borders.[292] The Avignon Papacy ended in 1376 when the Pope returned to Rome[293][294] but was soon followed in 1378 by the 38-year-long Western schism with separate claimants to the papacy in Rome, Avignon and (after 1409) Pisa, backed by conflicting secular rulers.[295]''
Late Medieval and Renaissance In 1517, Martin Luther included his Ninety-Five Theses in a letter to several bishops.[318][319] His theses protested key points of Catholic doctrine as well as the sale of indulgences.[318][319] Huldrych Zwingli, John Calvin, and others further criticized Catholic teachings. These challenges developed into a large and all encompassing European movement called the Protestant Reformation.[234][320] The Catholic Church responded to doctrinal challenges and abuses highlighted by the Reformation at the Council of Trent (1545–1563), which became the driving force of the Counter-Reformation. Doctrinally, it reaffirmed central Catholic teachings such as transubstantiation, and the requirement for love and hope as well as faith to attain salvation.[333] It also made structural reforms, most importantly by improving the education of the clergy and laity and consolidating the central jurisdiction of the Roman Curia.[333][334][335][note 5]
Industrial age Although the infallibility of the Church in doctrinal matters had always been a Church dogma, the First Vatican Council, which convened in 1870, affirmed the doctrine of papal infallibility when exercised in certain specifically defined pronouncements.[352][353] The loss of the papal states to the Italian unification movement created what came to be known as the Roman Question,[356] a territorial dispute between the papacy and the Italian government that was not resolved until the 1929 Lateran Treaty granted sovereignty to the Holy See over Vatican City.[357]'''
1. I signed my post after the initial comments rather than the italicised section.
2. I do not and have never edited under another username.
Haldraper (talk) 19:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-21T19:08:00.000Z","author":"Haldraper","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Haldraper-2009-06-21T19:08:00.000Z-Suggested_shorter_summary_of_history_section","replies":["c-NancyHeise-2009-06-21T19:27:00.000Z-Haldraper-2009-06-21T19:08:00.000Z"]}}-->
All that the (non-secular) historians cited have said is that the texts of the Gospel say that Jesus said Peter was to be the rock of the Church. The line as written clearly implies that “historians” agree that the current RCC is *the* church as founded by Jesus. There is no need to be over-reaching. (The Eastern Orthodox Church believes itself to be *the* Church as do others and they have their own historians and parsings of the texts to support their positions). The line reads just fine as edited, no further elaboration is needed as this is still the introduction and the topic is already discussed more expansively within the body of the article. It is not the place of Wikipedia to “prove” the RCC has some primacy. Since contemporary documentation from the time is slim (the Gospels were all written 30+ years after Jesus and based on oral traditions) it is surely unprovable in the modern sense. It can surely be stated as a point of belief and interpretation however. BobKawanaka (talk) 15:26, 16 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-16T15:26:00.000Z","author":"BobKawanaka","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-BobKawanaka-2009-06-16T15:26:00.000Z-Historians_and_primacy","replies":["c-NancyHeise-2009-06-17T01:59:00.000Z-BobKawanaka-2009-06-16T15:26:00.000Z"]}}-->
The sentence Bob eliminated was this one in the lead "Through apostolic succession, the Church believes itself to be the continuation of the Christian community founded by Jesus in his consecration of Saint Peter, a view shared by many historians.[15][16][17] " That sentence is a summarization of the text that exists in "Origins and Mission" section of the article. The sentence has three references to support it including National Geographic Society that states historians looked back for centuries and saw Peter as the first pope of the Church. We used the term "many" historians because Nat Geo is referring to many centuries of historians, a fact clearly indicated in the vast amount of historical information throughout history on the Church. This is not a disputed fact. Origins and Mission section includes the only scholarly dispute on the origins of the Church with references to which scholars represent these views. NancyHeise talk 18:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-21T18:08:00.000Z","author":"NancyHeise","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-NancyHeise-2009-06-21T18:08:00.000Z-Historians_and_primacy","replies":[]}}-->
I will assume good faith on this topic one final time and presume that people are simply too busy to read completely what this is about. Nancy, I did not eliminate the sentence. I took out the final bit "a view shared by many historians". I will say again, those quotes do not say that the Church is the only continuation of the Church. As above, I don't believe most editors here want to say, imply or suggest that historians believe that the RCC is the only continuation of the Church as founded by Jesus and Peter. It is not supported by those quotes. You may say historians support it as a continuation and you can say the it is a tenet of the Church and its members that is is the only continuation. But it is not fair to claim that historians/others say the Church is the singular continuation. My proposal is a simple one and should not cause concern, it is not changing much text (one word) but it is an important change. I am only saying that the term "the continuation" needs to be changed to "a continuation". "Through apostolic succession, the Church believes itself to be a continuation of the Christian community founded by Jesus in his consecration of Saint Peter, a view shared by many historians.[15][16][17] ". This is a fair change. Frankly, it is important that this page, as all Wikipedia pages, be seen to be one of give and take and compromise among different editors. BobKawanaka (talk) 21:15, 21 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-21T21:15:00.000Z","author":"BobKawanaka","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-BobKawanaka-2009-06-21T21:15:00.000Z-Historians_and_primacy","replies":["c-NancyHeise-2009-06-22T00:46:00.000Z-BobKawanaka-2009-06-21T21:15:00.000Z"]}}-->
Hi Bob, while I agree that there is a problem with asserting that the Church is the continuation of the church founded by Jesus Christ (implying that it is the only valid continuation), there is also a problem with asserting that the Church is a continuation of the church founded by Jesus Christ because that is not a neutral description. Making such an assertion would suggest that there are multiple valid continuations of the church when the Catholic, the Orthodox and to a large extent the Anglicans would agree that there is only one church founded by Jesus Christ. This is an important theological point. Even most Protestants claim themselves to be part of the wider Christian community. This is why some Protestants use the word denomination rather than churches per se (although they frequently use "church" in the name of their denomination). Catholics reject the concept of a denomination. In their view, there is only one church. If there are divisions within that church, this is the result of human failing and not one that is not intended by God. I imagine the Orthodox feel the same way. This is why Catholics reject Branch Theory. A possible analogy would be the fact that both the Republic of China AND the People's Republic of China reject the "two China" model. Both sides believe that there is only one China and that reunification is both inevitable and desirable.
Now secular historians might consider that there are multiple continuations of the church founded by Jesus Christ and gloss over the theological problem of such an assertion; however, that is a secular POV and cannot be asserted baldly without making crystal clear what the view of the Catholic Church (among others) is.
I admit that I have no clear proposal to offer but I think the solution lies in the direction of "The Catholic Church considers its bishops to be validly consecrated according to the doctrine of apostolic succession, making them valid successors to the twelve apostles. In addition, the Church lays claim to the Primacy of Simon Peter and the Primacy of the Roman Pontiff by virtue of the Pope's title as the Bishop of Rome. Other churches such as the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Anglican Communion recognize the valid consecration of the Catholic Church's bishops as well as the primacy of the Bishop of Rome although they interpret that primacy differently."
The more I think about it, the less I like the phrase "continuation of the church founded by Jesus Christ". Because of this "one church/many churches" question, there seems to be no easy way to make such an assertion without delving into the nuances that I have outlined above. Neither "the continuation" nor "a continuation" can resolve the conundrums that are raised. I think we are better off to avoid the phrase altogether.
--Richard (talk) 23:51, 25 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-25T23:51:00.000Z","author":"Richardshusr","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Richardshusr-2009-06-25T23:51:00.000Z-Historians_and_primacy","replies":[],"displayName":"Richard"}}-->
Richard, your "The Catholic Church considers its bishops ..." text is perfectly fine (though some are likely to argue its length). You capture the important distinctions, you allow for other theological interpretations while still asserting what the Church believes and we are no longer casting it so strongly as a point that can be decided by historians in favor of one "side" versus another. I think it reads much more strongly and is less likely to be open to future re-edits. Thanks. It would be best if you or another of the longer serving editors made the change. I will only chime in if the wording leans too much toward diminishing other groups or toward "proving" primacy. Thanks again. BobKawanaka (talk) 22:30, 26 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-26T22:30:00.000Z","author":"BobKawanaka","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-BobKawanaka-2009-06-26T22:30:00.000Z-Historians_and_primacy","replies":[]}}-->
I know we are in mediation about the name issue but until that process is complete, I have added the McBrien reference and quote (peer reviewed scholalry source) to the lead sentence stating that "Catholic Church" is the official name because of a complaint by Gimmetrow at mediation. See [2]. NancyHeise talk 02:52, 23 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-23T02:52:00.000Z","author":"NancyHeise","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-NancyHeise-2009-06-23T02:52:00.000Z-added_ref_to_\"official\"_per_comment_by_Gimmetrow_at_mediation","replies":["c-NancyHeise-2009-06-25T03:45:00.000Z-NancyHeise-2009-06-23T02:52:00.000Z"]}}-->
I've slightly rewritten the bit on the pontifical academy of sciences and edited the child sex abuse section to make them both more NPOV. Before people start reverting, sending me messages etc., could you please read them and let me know what if anything you object to and whether you think they are in any way anti-RCC POV.Haldraper (talk) 15:55, 23 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-23T15:55:00.000Z","author":"Haldraper","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Haldraper-2009-06-23T15:55:00.000Z-NPOV","replies":["c-Baccyak4H-2009-06-23T17:05:00.000Z-Haldraper-2009-06-23T15:55:00.000Z"]}}-->
There are two problems with the section as it stands:
1. it is like a tug of war of opinions. The actions of the bishops are contentious I'm afraid, it's POV to try and alibi them with a in any case disputed history of psychological approaches to child sex abuse. I don't see how it is anti-Catholic POV to stick to the facts of the allegations and the steps taken by the Church in response to them. I think Nancy you're reading criticism into the words that isn't there.
2. it is far too US-centric. I can accept that as most abuse cases took place there that should be a major focus but to view a worldwide issue solely through the prism of US statistics and practice is excessive, especially the insistence on comparing the abuse favourably with alleged abuse in US schools and the undue weight given to the remarks by Dougherty who is not an independepent source after all. Haldraper (talk) 18:37, 23 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-23T18:37:00.000Z","author":"Haldraper","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Haldraper-2009-06-23T18:37:00.000Z-NPOV","replies":["c-Haldraper-2009-06-23T18:43:00.000Z-Haldraper-2009-06-23T18:37:00.000Z"]}}-->
I hestitate to get into this because it's an unnecessary debate as far as Wikipedia is concerned: we should stick to the facts without reporting what people 'contended', 'commented' etc. My version of the para didn't include criticism of the bishops' inaction or their justification for it because both are beside the point in an encyclopaedia article. Just state the facts - number of allegations, steps taken by the Church to deal with problem - and let people draw their own conclusions rather than presenting them with 'X made this criticism of the Church but Y responded by pointing out' which gives it an inappropriate, apologist tone.
Three things strike me as particularly beside the point:
1. How is it relevant to the allegation that the RCC knew about crimes committed by its priests and failed to report them to police to say that psycholgists at the time thought that counselling was appropriate. Wasn't that for the courts to decide?
2. I've re-read the article on US schools: the two situations just aren't comparable. The 'abuse' in schools covers a wide range of activity, including consensual relationships between young adults - e.g. teenage male students and female teachers - that would be legal but for the student-teacher relationship. None of the abuse by priests was consensual, led to marriage in some cases etc. It also adds to the apologist tone, 'bad, but not as bad as in schools'.
3. Jon E. Dougherty is a Catholic commentator whose writings seek to defend the Church. He is not an independent source and his comments are given undue weight. Can anyone present evidence for his claim that child abuse in the RCC has received widespread coverage because the media is anti-Catholic or is that just his opinion? If this section is going to be US-centric, at least let's base it on relevant, referenced facts rather than opinions. Haldraper (talk) 21:11, 23 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-23T21:11:00.000Z","author":"Haldraper","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Haldraper-2009-06-23T21:11:00.000Z-NPOV","replies":["c-Xandar-2009-06-23T22:18:00.000Z-Haldraper-2009-06-23T21:11:00.000Z","c-NancyHeise-2009-06-23T22:30:00.000Z-Haldraper-2009-06-23T21:11:00.000Z"]}}-->
I'm against dragging US schools into an article on the RCC but if an independent, verifiiable source exists it would be better to replace Dougherty's POV article with it.Haldraper (talk) 11:11, 24 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-24T11:11:00.000Z","author":"Haldraper","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Haldraper-2009-06-24T11:11:00.000Z-NPOV","replies":[]}}-->
Reading that section again, two things strike me:
1. the bit about the bishops fails to make clear the central charge aginst them, their failure to report to police abuse that had been committed by priests, not just their complicity in allowing such behaviour to happen again. How about this for a rewrite?
The Church was widely criticized when it emerged that some bishops who knew about abuse allegations failed to report them to police. They had also reassigned accused priests after first sending them to psychiatric counseling.[403][406][407][408] Some bishops and psychiatrists contended that the prevailing psychology of the times suggested that people could be cured of such behavior through counseling.[407][409] Pope John Paul II responded by declaring that "there is no place in the priesthood and religious life for those who would harm the young".[3] The US Church instituted reforms to prevent future abuse including requiring background checks for Church employees and volunteers;[410][411] and, because the vast majority of victims were teenage boys, the worldwide Church also prohibited the ordination of men with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies".[154][409][412]
2. as well as the lack of independence/undue weight given to Dougherty's comments, the bit that really sticks out is 'same problem' in relation to US schools. The academic report from Hofstra University just doesn't support that assertion, it does not primarily cover men sexually assaulting boys (which is what we're discussing) but has a much wider range, including consensual relationships between teenage male students and female teachers a few years older than them. I think we could easily lose the last sentence (which also adds to the US-centric tone) without losing balance in this section. Haldraper (talk) 11:43, 24 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-24T11:43:00.000Z","author":"Haldraper","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Haldraper-2009-06-24T11:43:00.000Z-NPOV","replies":["c-Xandar-2009-06-24T11:53:00.000Z-Haldraper-2009-06-24T11:43:00.000Z","c-Haldraper-2009-06-24T16:29:00.000Z-Haldraper-2009-06-24T11:43:00.000Z"]}}-->
Richard, I'd have no problem with your suggested rewrite.Haldraper (talk) 18:29, 24 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-24T18:29:00.000Z","author":"Haldraper","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Haldraper-2009-06-24T18:29:00.000Z-NPOV","replies":["c-Xandar-2009-06-24T20:16:00.000Z-Haldraper-2009-06-24T18:29:00.000Z"]}}-->
Xandar, where are you coming from? Instead of personal attacks, why not give an example of where I have inserted 'negative, and generally uninfomed, viewpoints about the Church'? If you don't, I will assume you are unable to back up that allegation and therefore withdraw it. Nancy, it's over the top to say as you do to say that the para 'is POV either one way or the other if any of those sentences is eliminated': it's not like it's the Bible where every word is inviolable :-) I could live with the para as it stands as long as we lose the last sentence, i.e. Dougherty's comment that media coverage of the issue has been 'excessive' which is inappropriate on a number of grounds:
1. it's a weasel construction 2. it's from a non-independent source 3. it is off topic (US schools/media rather than the RCC) 4. it breaches NPOV by introducing an apologist tone
Haldraper (talk) 08:06, 25 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-25T08:06:00.000Z","author":"Haldraper","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Haldraper-2009-06-25T08:06:00.000Z-NPOV","replies":["c-Baccyak4H-2009-06-25T13:53:00.000Z-Haldraper-2009-06-25T08:06:00.000Z"]}}-->
Xandar, what was POV about the sentence I wrote? I didn't remove the sentence or the references but rewrote it slightly because the comparison with schools is too narrow and inaccurate and it gives undue weight and prominence to one commentator. You say 'And we are perfectly right to include opinions that refelect a point of view favourable to Catholicism in this article. It is called balance'. You'd have a point if the section highlighted quotations from commentators critical of the Church but as it doesn't you don't.Haldraper (talk) 16:06, 25 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-25T16:06:00.000Z","author":"Haldraper","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Haldraper-2009-06-25T16:06:00.000Z-NPOV","replies":["c-Xandar-2009-06-26T02:19:00.000Z-Haldraper-2009-06-25T16:06:00.000Z","c-NancyHeise-2009-06-25T18:55:00.000Z-Haldraper-2009-06-25T16:06:00.000Z"]}}-->
I actually agree with Nancy's latest edits and think that between us we have now achieved a much improved section.Haldraper (talk) 19:25, 25 June 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-06-25T19:25:00.000Z","author":"Haldraper","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Haldraper-2009-06-25T19:25:00.000Z-NPOV","replies":["c-NancyHeise-2009-06-25T19:32:00.000Z-Haldraper-2009-06-25T19:25:00.000Z"]}}-->
Just browsing over the history section. It seems like the amount of text space is heavily weighted to more recent events, if you look at how much space the time period since the 19th century takes (especially since the 1950s), compared to absolutely any other period of its history, then it looks very odd. - Yorkshirian (talk) 17:47, 2 August 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-08-02T17:47:00.000Z","author":"Yorkshirian","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Yorkshirian-2009-08-02T17:47:00.000Z-History_section_and_recentism","replies":["c-Haldraper-2009-08-03T11:10:00.000Z-Yorkshirian-2009-08-02T17:47:00.000Z","c-Yorkshirian-2009-08-07T17:46:00.000Z-Yorkshirian-2009-08-02T17:47:00.000Z"]}}-->
I just yesterday belatedly noticed that no one had inserted the text proposed by me and agreed to by BobKawanaka back in June which attempted to resolve the issue of "a continuation" vs. "the continuation" so I inserted it. My edit was subsequently revised by 24.127.29.172. Some parts of her edit are good but it restored the issue of "The Church believes itself to be the continuation of... , a view shared by many historians".
The problem here is that it is unclear which historians believe the Catholic Church to be the continuation of the Christian community founded by Jesus Christ. Are these Catholic historians, Western historians, the majority of all historians? Orthodox historians would argue that the Orthodox church is the continuation and the Catholic Church split off from them. Anglican historians might argue some version of Branch theory in which the Catholic, Orthodox and Anglican churches are all equally valid continuations. Protestants would certainly challenge the idea that they are not part of the continuation. I have difficulty believing that secular historians would back the claim of the Catholic Church to be the (sole valid) continuation.
On the other hand, we cannot write that "the Catholic Church believes itself to be a continuation of..." as this could be read to imply something that is not true, i.e. that Catholic Church accepts other churches as valid continuations. Well, it probably accepts the Orthodox and some Anglicans as having validly consecrated bishops who are unfortunately out of communion with the Bishop of Rome. However, there is more nuance in that last sentence than can be communicated in the sentence "the Catholic Church believes itself to be a continuation of...".
My proposed resolution was to get rid of the word "continuation" altogether and focus on apostolic succession and the valid consecration of bishops (which is the entire basis of the Church's claim anyways). Most importantly, we must separate "the Church believes itself to be..." from "a view shared by many historians" unless we can more clearly qualify which historians we are talking about.
--Richard (talk) 15:45, 6 August 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-08-06T15:45:00.000Z","author":"Richardshusr","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Richardshusr-2009-08-06T15:45:00.000Z-\"a_view_shared_by_many_historians\"","replies":["c-Haldraper-2009-08-07T17:33:00.000Z-Richardshusr-2009-08-06T15:45:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Richard"}}-->
I'm not that bothered either way but I think we could lose the start of the sentence and just state that the see of Rome had primacy from the early history of the Church which the refs clearly support.Haldraper (talk) 11:48, 13 August 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-08-13T11:48:00.000Z","author":"Haldraper","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Haldraper-2009-08-13T11:48:00.000Z-\"a_view_shared_by_many_historians\"","replies":["c-Peter_jackson-2009-08-14T09:58:00.000Z-Haldraper-2009-08-13T11:48:00.000Z"]}}-->
I liked the modern confessional we had in June, the new one does not look like any confessional I have ever seen. What do others think? I also liked the previous picture of missionaries baptizing Indians instead of the present picture in Cultural influence. Thoughts? NancyHeise talk 04:30, 9 August 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-08-09T04:30:00.000Z","author":"NancyHeise","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-NancyHeise-2009-08-09T04:30:00.000Z-confessional_picture","replies":["c-Anietor-2009-08-09T04:55:00.000Z-NancyHeise-2009-08-09T04:30:00.000Z"]}}-->
IMO the "modern" picture doesn't look definitively Catholic: maybe I just visit older church's but I've never seen one as stripped down and bare as that (travelled throughout Europe). Most Catholic confessionals are closer to the box, especially in majority Catholic countries. Before the images focuses far too much on the New World I think, there were actually two images depicting California (!). France as the Eldest Daughter of the Church (where confessional is located) and Spain one of, if not the, most militantly Catholic force throughout early modern period (represented in the culture section with School of Salamanca) are probably worthy of some pictoral representation to even it out. - Yorkshirian (talk) 14:48, 11 August 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-08-11T14:48:00.000Z","author":"Yorkshirian","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Yorkshirian-2009-08-11T14:48:00.000Z-confessional_picture","replies":[]}}-->
У этого термина существуют и другие значения, см. Вашана (значения).Вашана Характеристика Длина 68 км Бассейн 629 км² Водоток Исток (Т) (B) • Местоположение у д. Мызовка • Координаты 54°27′17″ с. ш. 37°48′12″ в. д.HGЯO Устье (Т) (B) Ока …
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