Many underscores (like so) have been added in referenced quotations that are not present in the sources, to add emphasis and "metaphorically underscore" the editor's stance, which seems wrong to me. It's another form of editorialising. As well as this, the manual of style says: "Generally, do not underline text or it may be confused with links on a web page." Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 13:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230712135000","author":"Esowteric","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Esowteric-20230712135000-Underscores","replies":["c-Esowteric-20230712140900-Esowteric-20230712135000"]}}-->
Consolidating here. We've gone back and forth on several phrasings in the long discussions above. Current form as of this post:
Type of magical practice
My concern with these is that we shouldn't state in Wiki-voice that everyone who claims to have supernatural powers actually has them. I'm also not sure that all readers will understand, or agree, with how "magic" is defined here (see linked disambig). Occultists came up with the "magick with a k" spelling to distinguish magic (supernatural) and ceremonial magic from stage magic (magic (illusion)). Some readers may still go to stage magic in their minds. We need to think outside the "everyone knows what pagan magic is" box with this. What can we use instead of "magic"? Metaphysical? Occult? - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 20:06, 13 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230713200600","author":"CorbieVreccan","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-CorbieVreccan-20230713200600-Short_description","replies":["c-Esowteric-20230713201200-CorbieVreccan-20230713200600","c-Esowteric-20230713203100-CorbieVreccan-20230713200600","c-Esowteric-20230713204500-CorbieVreccan-20230713200600"]}}-->
Should we further move the Islam section? I feel like it doesn't fit the narrow definition of "Witchcraft" we tend to agree this article should focus on, since magic had a rather ambivalent role in Islamic culture prior to the rise of contemporary Salafism/Wahhabism. The boundaries between magic and "witchcraft" (magic performed with evil entities) are fluent. We often tend to merge Islam with Judeo-Christian tradition, overlooking that Islam was much more influenced by Asian and African traditions (which usually lacks the duality of nature/magic) than (Western) Christianity was. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 10:58, 16 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230716105800","author":"VenusFeuerFalle","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-VenusFeuerFalle-20230716105800-Islam_section","replies":["c-Iskandar323-20230716220700-VenusFeuerFalle-20230716105800"]}}-->
There were 178 hour-long episode of Charmed in which the heroines, three sisters known as The Charmed Ones, were cast as "good witches" fighting demons and warlocks. It's still seen in reruns. 2600:8801:BE01:2500:1047:BD5C:178A:73C1 (talk) 16:16, 19 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230719161600","author":"2600:8801:BE01:2500:1047:BD5C:178A:73C1","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-2600:8801:BE01:2500:1047:BD5C:178A:73C1-20230719161600-What,_no_mention_of_the_TV_fantasy_drama_\"Charmed\"?","replies":["c-Skyerise-20230719170900-2600:8801:BE01:2500:1047:BD5C:178A:73C1-20230719161600"]}}-->
In Western esotericism, mystical is contrasted with magical. Mystical refers to inner experience, magical to outer effects. Witchcraft is not typically referred to as 'mystical'. Skyerise (talk) 16:17, 22 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230722161700","author":"Skyerise","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Skyerise-20230722161700-Mystical","replies":[]}}-->
The result of the move request was: Not moved per WP:SNOW. starship.paint (exalt) 02:27, 23 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230723022700","author":"Starship.paint","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Starship.paint-20230723022700-Requested_move_19_July_2023","replies":[],"displayName":"starship"}}-->
– The current article has created contentious discussion regarding how to focus this article between various versions of the words Witch and Witchcraft. Primary divisions between topics seems to agree with some reasonable classifications/divisions. (Bonewits's classifications include; Neopagan, Classical, Gothic/Diabolical, Ethnic, etc.)[1] Tentative consensus was reached around separating the types, and allowing each to be addressed on their own sub-pages. However, leaving one as the primary topic will continue to feed this confusion and conflict. Other potential titles for what is currently the main Witchcraft page have been suggested, including (scholarly consensus) and (historic), however these potentially present additional value judgements beyond those necessary for deconfliction. Given the intent to focus the article on use of evil magic and worldwide persecution (gothic) or (diabolical) might instead be appropriate, leaving the classical subheading to Cunning folk (a comparison Bonewits is quoted as making). Regardless, the current name lacks clarity of topic, creating unnecessary conflict among readers and editors and producing disruption to article improvement. Darker Dreams (talk) 19:55, 19 July 2023 (UTC) Darker Dreams (talk) 19:55, 19 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230719195500","author":"Darker Dreams","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Darker_Dreams-20230719195500-Requested_move_19_July_2023","replies":[]}}-->
References
Witchcraft, traditionally and worldwide, usually means the use of malevolent magic."
Witchcraft traditionally means the use of magic or supernatural powers to harm others.
Practice of magic, usually to cause harm
"Witchcraft" refers to worldwide historical and traditional beliefs about witchcraft.
Have left a message about this discussion at all the wikiprojects shown on this talk page. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 21:32, 19 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230719213200","author":"Esowteric","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Esowteric-20230719213200-Requested_move_19_July_2023","replies":["c-Thebiguglyalien-20230719230800-Esowteric-20230719213200","c-Netherzone-20230720001400-Esowteric-20230719213200","c-StarTrekker-20230720013400-Esowteric-20230719213200","c-Iskandar323-20230720075000-Esowteric-20230719213200","c-Esowteric-20230720085100-Esowteric-20230719213200","c-Nosferattus-20230720153200-Esowteric-20230719213200","c-Carchasm-20230720154300-Esowteric-20230719213200","c-Asarla\u00ed-20230720203900-Esowteric-20230719213200","c-Skyerise-20230720173100-Esowteric-20230719213200","c-Caeciliusinhorto-20230720202500-Esowteric-20230719213200","c-Walt_Yoder-20230720221400-Esowteric-20230719213200","c-Skyerise-20230721170300-Esowteric-20230719213200","c-Esowteric-20230721183500-Esowteric-20230719213200","c-Zxcvbnm-20230721201200-Esowteric-20230719213200"]}}-->
Traditionally, "witchcraft" generally means the use of magic or supernatural powers to inflict harm or misfortune on others, and this remains the most common and widespread meaning ...
That is, however, only one current usage of the word. In fact, Anglo-American senses of it now take at least four different forms, although the one discussed above seems still to be the most widespread and frequent. The others define the witch figure as any person who uses magic ... or as the practitioner of nature-based Pagan religion; or as a symbol of independent female authority and resistance to male domination. All have validity in the present, and to call anybody wrong for using any one of them would be to reveal oneself as bereft of general knowledge, as well as scholarship. ... [I]n this book the mainstream scholarly convention will be followed, and the word used only for an alleged worker of such destructive magic.
Most of the people arguing against renaming this article above contend that it is a WP:BROADCONCEPT article. If that is the case, it needs to include some mention and summarization of Wicca and Neopagan witchcraft as related topics (which I tried to do but was reverted). If, however, it is a narrow-concept article, it should be renamed to clarify its scope. Nosferattus (talk) 17:45, 20 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230720174500","author":"Nosferattus","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Nosferattus-20230720174500-Is_this_a_WP:BROADCONCEPT_article_or_not?","replies":["c-Skyerise-20230720174800-Nosferattus-20230720174500","c-Skyerise-20230720180500-Nosferattus-20230720174500","c-Iskandar323-20230720185900-Nosferattus-20230720174500"]}}-->
After reading this whole thread and looking at the diffs, I am in agreement with Iskandar323 and Nosferattus that we should have a brief section and have added back the section Nosferattus added. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 23:49, 20 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230720234900","author":"CorbieVreccan","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-CorbieVreccan-20230720234900-Is_this_a_WP:BROADCONCEPT_article_or_not?","replies":["c-Skyerise-20230721010300-CorbieVreccan-20230720234900"]}}-->
a news story: how's Fictional but dead practitioners of malevolent magic used to smear the very real and non-malevolent living. Or maybe Cabal of Wikipedia editors reinforce negative coverage of living people using the ghosts of persecuted women falsely accused of witchcraft, which they deny exists.
Let s/he who has not missed the mark cast the first stone:
At an ongoing edit warring noticeboard case, evidence has been presented, with the dismissive and frequent claim of "POV pushing" "against consensus":
Quote: (see here). I undid that, they removed the sentence again, I restored it, then they removed it again.
Ask yourself which is the more collegial, if errant:
Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 07:40, 23 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230723074000","author":"Esowteric","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Esowteric-20230723074000-\"POV_pushing_against_consensus\"","replies":["c-Netherzone-20230723143600-Esowteric-20230723074000"]}}-->
@Skyerise: I did not revert anyone. So what's with more of your hitting undo when I, without changing the meaning, cut down on the excess verbiage? Your odd edit summary: Undid revision 1166785522 by CorbieVreccan (talk) let's not interrupt the collaborative process which is how we arrive at a new consensus; improve, don't revert. You going back and forth with one person on here is not a "new consensus". You are still at the 3RR board for this. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 20:03, 23 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230723200300","author":"CorbieVreccan","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-CorbieVreccan-20230723200300-More_discussion_about_the_lede","replies":["c-Skyerise-20230723200600-CorbieVreccan-20230723200300"]}}-->
A quote was requested from this book. You can read it here. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 13:00, 25 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230725130000","author":"Esowteric","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Esowteric-20230725130000-Knowledge,_Belief,_and_Witchcraft","replies":[]}}-->
The page seems to currently use both varieties - search for 'ised' and 'ized'. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:37, 22 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230722083700","author":"Iskandar323","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Iskandar323-20230722083700-British_or_American_spelling?","replies":["c-Esowteric-20230722090700-Iskandar323-20230722083700"]}}-->
I'd like to, if I may, sum up the disagreement we have as it stands. This article is about malevolent witchcraft, which was practiced by exceedingly few people but has globally been a significant cultural anxiety. Our discussions, for the most part, agree that neopagan witchcraft and Harry Potter style witchcraft portrayed in (mostly Western) popular culture are related in name and general aesthetics only. Thus, they are only mentioned to explain how they grew out of the cultural concept of malevolent witchcraft. The disagreement now centers around whether an article about malevolent witchcraft needs to be labeled as such, or whether, per WP:COMMONNAME, "witchcraft" is already commonly understood to refer to malevolent spellcasting. Of the people who have voted on the matter, four believe that specification is needed and ten (excluding the "soft oppose") believe that it goes without saying. I think a fair bit of the disagreement may come from how you understand this article to be a WP:BROADCONCEPT article. I believe that those who support specification are worried that if this article is a broad concept, then it is an article about all practices known as "witchcraft". As such, an overwhelming focus on malevolent witchcraft may be seen as biased. However, the way I understand the article and the way that I believe those who are opposed to specification see it is as a broad concept article about malevolent witchcraft and all of its related socio-cultural phenomena (witch hunts, etc.) around the globe. Under this understanding positive/neopagan witchcraft does not fall under the broad concept because it is a novel phenomenon, related in name and some general aesthetics only. It deserves mention, but only as a distinct cultural phenomenon loosely inspired by the cultural concept of witchcraft. The article then, is not biased towards malevolent witchcraft and against neopagan witchcraft because it is specifically an article about malevolent witchcraft. The question, then, returns to whether we need to specify that this article is about malevolent witchcraft or whether witchcraft is already commonly understood to refer to malevolent magical practices, even if a noteworthy countercultural spiritual movement has appropriated and reinterpreted the term. Pliny the Elderberry (talk) 01:11, 23 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230723011100","author":"Pliny the Elderberry","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Pliny_the_Elderberry-20230723011100-Summing_Up_the_Problem","replies":["c-Darker_Dreams-20230723015500-Pliny_the_Elderberry-20230723011100","c-Darker_Dreams-20230723023800-Pliny_the_Elderberry-20230723011100"]}}-->
I find the really problematic systemic bias is that the article doesn't question the reality of the definition at all. It seems to assume that "traditional" witches and their witchcraft were/are real. This is a view which is simply not accepted by science. The closest we have to a scientific view of what a witch actually refers to would be rooted in Carl Jung's theory of archetypes (e.g. [1]). If a "traditional" witch were a real thing, we should be able to point to a list of real, actual, witches. Can anybody come up with such a list? NO. Because the worldwide scientific consensus on witchcraft is that it was and is the product of the fevered imagination of an uneducated or poorly educated populace. Any other fictional or imaginary subject would be defined as such from the start. Yet the article doesn't even mention this. The words 'archetype', 'imaginary', 'imagination', 'projection' are not to be found. The article is taking a stance that witchcraft is REAL. That's unbalanced. Skyerise (talk) 10:43, 23 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230723104300","author":"Skyerise","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Skyerise-20230723104300-The_Reality_of_Witchcraft","replies":["c-Esowteric-20230723122800-Skyerise-20230723104300","c-Slatersteven-20230723143900-Skyerise-20230723104300"]}}-->
Dummy edit to make sure that this thread is not archived while dispute resolution is going on. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 09:05, 26 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230726090500","author":"Esowteric","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Esowteric-20230726090500-The_Reality_of_Witchcraft","replies":[]}}-->
"What [Sir James George Frazer, in The Golden Bough: A Study in Magic and Religion] calls magic is the effort to conjure with the invisible world, whether intentional or not. While magical thinking—the assumption that my thoughts or actions can have an effect on the other—may strike us as naive and misguided, we have to recall the power of complexes, projections, scapegoating, psychic possession, and transference phenomena, which Jung helped identify, to admit that, indeed, there is such movement of invisible energy for which the word magic was once used." ... "Frazer's magic is primary psychic process".
~ James Hollis. The Archetypal Imagination (Carolyn and Ernest Fay Series in Analytical Psychology) (Kindle Location 417). Kindle Edition.
Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 12:47, 26 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230726124700","author":"Esowteric","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Esowteric-20230726124700-Is_magic_real?","replies":["c-Slatersteven-20230726125000-Esowteric-20230726124700","c-Iskandar323-20230726130100-Esowteric-20230726124700"]}}-->
I have opened a case on the dispute resolution noticeboard at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Witchcraft. I have included as participants anyone that appeared to have expressed an opinion during ongoing discussions either as a !vote or more than once and had not indicated in some part of the discussion they do not want to be considered a participant. I apologize if you feel that you have been included inappropriately; I wanted to ensure that participation was widely inclusive. I also apologize if you would like to have been included and were not; I set a standard at the start for selecting names that I felt would be least likely to be biased towards any particular point of view. Darker Dreams (talk) 22:18, 25 July 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230725221800","author":"Darker Dreams","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Darker_Dreams-20230725221800-Case_opened_on_dispute_resolution_noticeboard","replies":["c-Netherzone-20230726205700-Darker_Dreams-20230725221800"]}}-->
I am not saying that this was done deliberately, but without giving ALL editors the chance to participate, it could be perceived as gaming the system or a variant of forum shopping.
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Een goederentrein van Union Pacific, een van de grote Class I-spoorwegmaatschappijen, rijdt over de Joso Bridge in Washington. De metro van New York is met 1,7 miljard passagiers per jaar (2013) het grootste metronetwerk van het Amerikaanse continent. De spoorwegen in de Verenigde Staten zijn getekend door een rijke geschiedenis met snelle omwentelingen en enorme groeispurten. Tegenwoordig beschikt de VS over een heel uitgebreid netwerk, dat echter vooral voor goederenvervoer gebruikt wordt. Per…
South Australian cabinet minister Attorney-General of South AustraliaSouth Australian Coat of ArmsFlag of South AustraliaIncumbentKyam Mahersince 24 March 2022Attorney-General's DepartmentStyleThe HonourableMember ofParliamentCabinetExecutive CouncilReports toPremier of South AustraliaSeat45 Pirie Street, AdelaideNominatorPremier of South AustraliaAppointerGovernor of South Australiaon the advice of the premierTerm lengthAt the Governor's pleasureFormation24 October 1856First holderRichard …
2003 book by Germaine Greer For other uses, see Beautiful Boy (disambiguation). The Beautiful Boy Cover of The Beautiful Boy, showing Björn Andrésen in 1970 by David Bailey (international edition)AuthorGermaine GreerLanguageEnglishSubjectsArt historyPublisherThames & HudsonPublication date2003Media typePrintPages256ISBN978-0-5002-8488-9 The Beautiful Boy is a book by radical feminist academic Germaine Greer, published in 2003 as The Boy in the Commonwealth by Thames & Hudson and i…
American politician Will Nicholson37th Mayor of DenverIn office1955–1959Preceded byJ. Quigg NewtonSucceeded byRichard Batterton Personal detailsBorn(1900-09-12)September 12, 1900Aurora, IllinoisDiedJanuary 1975(1975-01-00) (aged 74)Colorado Will Faust Nicholson (September 12, 1900 – January 1975) was an American politician who served as the mayor of Denver, Colorado from 1955 to 1959.[1][2] References ^ History of the Office of the Mayor. City and County of Denver. R…
United States Army admiral (1924–2009) For the political science professor, see W. Wesley McDonald. Wesley L. McDonaldOfficial United States Navy photographic portrait of McDonald.Nickname(s)WesBorn(1924-07-06)July 6, 1924Washington D.C., U.S.DiedFebruary 8, 2009(2009-02-08) (aged 84)Arlington County, Virginia, U.S.Place of burialArlington National CemeteryAllegianceUnited States of AmericaService/branch United States NavyYears of service1946–1985Rank AdmiralCommands heldAttac…
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