These sections need a serious correction since they are inacurate and incomplete. --AlexPU 16:59, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Hey, Monedula!
Would you please stop your post-imperial propaganda in the articles related to Ukraine. If you can documentally prove that Ukrainian was "being used" in USSR in the fields you specify - so do it on the page, cite. And even if you do - your anyway would be lying or misinformed because Sovdepia was purely Byzantine system of lying, hiding and falsing. I was born in 1977 and never seen such usage. AlexPU 15:19, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
While I will refrain from describing people, some facts need to be affirmed here about contributions. I take issue with calling the Monedula contributions as nationalistic, they are, more precisely imperialistic and chauvanistic. This is how they vandalize the truth. I visited a major bookstore in downtown Kiev in the late 1980s, and all titles were in Russian except about 10, and of these ten, six or seven were on the theme of the 'bourguoiuse...Nazi-colloborating Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church', which was portrayed in the press at the time as 'not existing, except in the diseased mind of a Uniate priest.' The television was overwhelmingly dominated by Russian. I saw one Ukrainian program there, which was merely two speakers talking in a studio, the entire time. Either they had no other resources for Ukrainian programming, or didn't know how to use them. Let's eliminate the foreign chauvinism from the non-friendly neighbors, and document the repressive and manipulative language situation. Genyo 20:56, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Dr Bug, alias "volodymyr" formerly representing oneself as "Vladimir." Please decide who you are. And kindly refrain from lectures on proper conduct here. You should know better than to delete information with a mere jingoism. Back up your sloppy inaccurate labels with facts before you delete information. Your vandalism of the linguistic facts has been repaired. Genyo 00:54, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Monedula (et. al.) Thank you for your entry to me. I'd be interested in hearing more about how your assertion of interest in (the acccurate English term is) "Humanities" in the Soviet Union and Soviet Ukraine relates to the language situation. I look forward to continued dialogue. Genyo 16:28, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
During the time of the incorporation of Ruthenia (Ukraine and Belarus) into the Polish Commonwealth, Ukrainian (Rus'ian) and Belarusian diverged into identifiably separate languages.
It seems to be a controversial thesis. What about border between Belarusian and Ukrainian, which has nothing to do with border between the Crown and Lithuania after after incorporation of Ruthenia to Poland? The linguistic border runs about 100-150 kilometers north of the political border. For example northern part of Podlachia was settled by Ruthenians between 10th and 13th centuries. If Belarusian and Ukrainian diverged after 16th century, this area should be linguistically Belarusian, but in fact is clearly Ukrainian. According to me the only possible explanation is that clear differences between "Belarusian" and "Ukrainian" existed already at the time of settlement of this area, before 13th century.Yeti 13:46, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Yeti, can you find a different explanation in history, say, in Belarusian histories? I'd be interested! Genyo 02:04, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Alex, there are some outrageous recent edits. I'll be refuting them with facts soon. Genyo 02:06, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As the article documents, special repressions in Ukraine began several years before they were instituted in other parts of the Soviet Union. Ukrainians were 20% of the population of the Soviet empire, and 40% of the gulag. Genyo 17:55, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Monedula, please keep me out of your fantasies. The Soviets recognized an independent Ukraine and then invaded it. Let's hear more about your fantasy of Lenin bringing about Ukrainian statehood. Genyo 18:41, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Yeti, there is a quote from a contemparaneous Russian Soviet journal which stated that the goal of the famine was to break the backbone of the Ukrainian nation. The borders of Ukraine were sealed, and wheat was exported by the Russian Soviets. The famine was largely limited to Ukraine and adjoining areas were Ukrainian settlement was prominent.
Genyo 14:46, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)
True, but how do you interpret the media quote I gave, and the fact that Ukraine was attacked earlier than other Soviet regions, and that Ukrainian nationalism was the first problem of the USSR? Genyo 02:31, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Monedula, some facts from Ukraine: A History. by Orest Subtelny, University of Toronto Press.
liquidation of Ukrainian peasants included 1,000,000 souls in the drive against the kulaks. of these 850,000 were exiled not to other parts of Ukraine, but to Russia. p410
The first FYP targeted 20% of jouseholds to collectivize--in Ukraine, 30%.
Much of Russia barely expeienced the famine of 1932-33. Ukraine provided 27% of the grain harves and 38% of quotas. p 415
A leading Communist paper in Ukraine noted in 1930 that collectivization in Ukraine was "to destroy the social basis of Ukrainian nationalism--individually owned peasant agriculture." p416
Stalin's spokesman in 1933 said that nationalism was Ukraine's most serious problem. p418.
xxx talking about me is little off topic. . .I didn't give a number for the books Iread, but actually, it's more than two!
xxx thank you for evidencing that the Russian were imprisioned in their own nation, the Ukrainians in another. The gulag had many locations inside Ukraine.
xxx the Basmachi sound like a people of some virtue! Slava! I wonder if their representation in the Gulag was 2x that in their population (As for the Ukrainians)? To read more about this, see Natal(Anatoly) Shcharansky's memoirs).
xxx OK, but they invented them more in Ukraine than elsewhere.
xx different people find different arguments compelling--the key is back them up with facts, as I have done--you're welcome, Monedula, to provide your own
xxx Genyo 20:52, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
— Monedula 17:41, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Monedula: Thank you for sharing. Strictly speaking, the "Antonov revolt" was part of the civil war, as opposed to governmental oppression in peace-time. I believe Antonov had some Ukrainian heritage, and they used a hyphenated form of his last name (Antonov-Ovsiyenko) during the Bolshevik Russian invasion of Ukraine.
I'm delighted to see he served freedom later.
Certainly the Russian Bolshevik state oppressed it's own people first; the oppression of 14 or so other nations generally came later (to be fair, these 14 are only the major ones--we shouldn't slight the others). This later step constituted inter-nation oppression and crime, though. And, overtime a certain inequality developed to the relative advantage of the first nation to be oppressed at the expense of the others. The Soviet system came to serve a "dictatorship of the lower class," and Russian imperialism, too.
This is not an exhaustive description of the situation, just some major trends. Genyo 23:06, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Ah, thank you for the education. Genyo 04:10, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Please, please, please. Let's talk linguistics now, OK? --i@k5 22:42, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)
My understanding of the relationship between Russian and Ukranian is that one ought to be very careful with word choice and language context when asking for a match (to light a cigarette). Those who have ears to hear ... will laugh their heads off; but it raises a serious question of whether it is an indication of closeness, or divergence. I'm not certain, myself.
Why doesn't this article mention surzhyk? As a matter of fact it's one of the very few (if not the only) pidgins in Europe. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 03:20, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)
There is a discussion going on at Talk:Old Ruthenian language whether to rename that page to Old Russian language or not. If a consensus to move the page is reached at Wikipedia:Requested moves, the page will be moved to the new location. Please take part in the ongoing discussion. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 14:03, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone have any comment on the following editorial?
"The relationships between Ukrainian and Russian have long been a subject of especially hot controversies. The summary of those controversies is that Ukrainians tend to say that these two languages are quite different, whereas Russians tend to say that they are quite similar." Genyo 02:27, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
If there's no objection, I'll remove the NPOV notice from this article. —Michael Z. 17:49, 2005 Jan 14 (UTC)
This talk page has not been edited since January 16 and the last major edit to the article is also from that date so there seems to be little interest in fixing the perceived lack of NPOV with the article, perhaps it is time to remove the NPOV notice now? I don't think it was intended to be permanently embedded in any article. --Biekko 21:02, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Phrase removed:
First, it must be discussed in a single place, to avoid divergence, namely, in the Ukraine article. Second, I've never heard of "Karelia" called "Ukraina". I also never seen the usage in the plural form, kind of "ukrainy Rossii" or something like that. mikka (t) 21:25, 18 July 2005 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-07-18T21:25:00.000Z","author":"Mikkalai","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Mikkalai-2005-07-18T21:25:00.000Z-\"Ukraine\"","replies":[],"displayName":"mikka"}}-->
Forgetting about past/present tense mismatch, what exactly this supposed to mean: most of persons of its population became bilingual as well? Also, wasn't ukraine bilingual within the USSR? AFAIK, it was far more bilingual than Belarus. mikka (t) 00:56, 19 July 2005 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-07-19T00:56:00.000Z","author":"Mikkalai","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Mikkalai-2005-07-19T00:56:00.000Z-\"Bilingual\"","replies":["c-Mikkalai-2005-07-19T01:29:00.000Z-Mikkalai-2005-07-19T00:56:00.000Z"],"displayName":"mikka"}}-->
Michael, thanks for your copyediting. Others, please help bring this to FAC. With grammar section rewritten, it should be ready. Now, re the poster. I think it is more than recruitment poster. It is also a Ukrainization poster. Mikkalai explained it well at Talk:Ukrainization#The_poster. So, should we make the caption say both? --Irpen 02:46, 21 September 2005 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-09-21T02:46:00.000Z","author":"Irpen","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Irpen-2005-09-21T02:46:00.000Z-Poster_of_1921","replies":[]}}-->
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