There was a contradiction in the definition of a postmodern society that said that though a main feature of postmodernism is the uniformity of people, people are still individuals (which doesn't go along with the definition) so I removed it.
Yes, it is true that people are still "individuals" but one of the distinctive features of postmodernism is the homogenization of cultures.
I also tried to make things more clear by rewording other parts a bit (but the same info is still there).
-- Usernamefortonyd
i think that you all just like to argue for the sake or arguing. just a bunch of hipster snobs. cheers!
The chart under "The development of postmodernism" is just plain stupid. Absolutely pointless and abusive. Serious POV and relevancy issues.
Ok, I'm a year 12 student here, and felt like doing a little research on post-modernism. This concept seems hard to grasp at first, and so many articles seem to be beyond many people's comprehension. It'd be great if there were a simplified version, even if it didn't include everything, just the basics. So I propose changes in the sentence structuring. Say what you want to, then give a simplified example. There’s no use writing an advanced article, which may well be of high standard, when only a few percent of the people can understand it.
Well that's my 2 cents.
The word 'Nietzsche' appears once in this article, and what is more, this single occurrence is preceded by the word 'maybe'. There aren't 20 ways of putting it: post-modernism is simply Nietzschean thought rehashed -and what I am saying is not even that controversial, you read this in every single (serious) handbook. Every single post-modern thinker assents to the Nietzschean God is Dead, or the genealogical uncovering of the knowledge/power nexus. A substantial amount of reworking required... (Cookydog)
By the way, a whole paragraph on the postmodern influence on political science was plagiarised from Ashley's 1990 Reading dissidence/Writing the discipline essay: a “draft-age youth whose identity is claimed in national narratives of ‘national security’ and the universalizing narratives of the ‘rights of man,’” of “the woman whose very womb is claimed by the irresolvable contesting narratives of ‘church,’ ‘paternity,’ ‘economy,’ and ‘liberal polity.’ So, you've put it between quotation marks -unless you say where it's from, it's plagiarism. (Cookydog) Dec 3. 2005
COMMENT: Nietzche is not postmodernism per se. Lyotard's essay is most instructive -- it begins with the computerization of knowledge. There is a clue for you. Nietzsche is a source, of course.
"The existentialists like Nietzsche brought a new nihilism and atheism which influenced culture."
Well, as far as I know, and I have done considerable Nietzsche reading, Nietzsche is foremost an anti-nihilist. He proposes the making of new values for humankind, beyond good and evil. The above passage in the text is one of the most common misrepresentations of the Nietzschean thought. Yet, overall, the sentence seems clearly biased against existentialist thinking in large... and what really does "brought a new atheism" mean? Is atheism used in a hidden pejorative sense? I guess. (Necati 22:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC))__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-04-25T22:30:00.000Z","author":"Necati.Topyildiz","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Necati.Topyildiz-2006-04-25T22:30:00.000Z-Nietzsche","replies":[],"displayName":"Necati"}}-->
"Postmodernism" as a philosophical movement is not just Niezsche rehashed; it grew out of the staged confrontations and collaborations of Nietzsche, Marx, and Freud undertaken by French (mostly) intellectuals in the early twentieth century. Boiling it down to Nietzsche is inaccurate (as would be boiling it down to the three of these thinkers).--csloat 01:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-06-03T01:36:00.000Z","author":"Commodore Sloat","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Commodore_Sloat-2006-06-03T01:36:00.000Z-Nietzsche","replies":["c-Jahsonic-2006-06-03T07:56:00.000Z-Commodore_Sloat-2006-06-03T01:36:00.000Z"],"displayName":"csloat"}}-->
I thoroughly enjoyed this thread -I like making provocative and exaggerated statements in order to get people riled up, and to get them to really say their mind! :-) I guess what my original point was that -despite what has been said hereabove- Nietzsche is an undeniable influence on post-modern thought. It is therefore a shame that he is nowhere mentioned in this article. Thank you! Cookydog.
I think a number of useful quotes and definitions were eliminated that do not constitute original research but rather the claims of others with expertise here (eg lyotard). It is true some of those sentences were problematic but I think the etymology of the term is useful, as well as comments by lyotard and habermas.--csloat 04:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-12-07T04:54:00.000Z","author":"Commodore Sloat","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Commodore_Sloat-2005-12-07T04:54:00.000Z-original_research_rant","replies":[],"displayName":"csloat"}}-->
I'm too lazy too dissect it myself, but here is an essay that perfectly defines the attitude of postmodernism:
HIP-DEEP IN POST-MODERNISM Reading Quiz by Todd Gitlin
One post-modernist trope is the list, as if culture were a garage sale , so it is appropriate to evoke post-modernism by offering a list of examples, for better and for worse: Michael Graves's Portland Building, Philip Johnson's AT&T, and hundreds of more of less skillful derivatives; Robert Rauschenberg's silk screens, Warhol's multiple-image painting, photo-realism, Larry Rivers's erasures and pseudo-pageantry, Sherrie Levine's photographs of "classic" photographs; Disneyland, Las Vegas, suburban strips, shopping malls, mirror-glass office building facades; William Burroughs, Tom Wolfe, Donald Barthelme, Monty Python,Don Delillo, Isuzu "He's lying" commercials, Philip Glass, "Stars Wars," Spaulding Gray, David Hockney ("Surface is illustration, but so is depth"), Max Headroom.,David Byrne, Twyla Tharp (choreographing Beach Boys and Frank Sinatra songs), Italo Calvino, "The Gospel at Colonus," Robert Wilson, the Flying Karamazov Brothers, George Coates, the Kronos Quartet, Frederick Barthelme, MTV, "Miami Vice," David Letterman, Laurie Anderson, Anselm Kiefer, John Ashberry, Paul Auster, thePompidou Center, the Hyatt Regency, "The White Hotel," E.L. Doctorow's "Book of Daniel," "Less Than Zero," Kathy Acker, Philip Roth's "Counterlife" (but not "Portnoy's Complaint"), the epilogue to Rainer Werner Fassbinder's "Berlin Alexanderplatz," the" language poets"; the French theorists Michel Foucault, Jaccques Lacan, Jacques Derrida and Jean Baudrillard; television morning shows; news commentary cluing us in to the image-making and "positioning" strategies of candidates; remote-control-equipped viewers "grazing" around the television dial.
Consider also Australia's Circus Oz, whose jugglers comment on their juggling and crack political jokes in a program infused by (their list) "Aboriginal influences, vaudeville, Chinese acrobatics, Japanese martial arts, fireman's balances, Indonesian instruments and rhythms, video, Middle Eastern tunes, B-grade detective movies, modern dance, Irish jigs, and the ubiquitous present of corporate marketing." Consider the student who walks into my office dressed in green jersey, orange skirt and black tights.
There important differences, of course. Donald Barthelme is wistful about the dignity of the pre-modernist tradition (In the Tolstoy Museum"); Kathy Acker ransacks and trashes it. But whether disasssembling or dissembling, post-modernists know that they, we, are living hip-deep in debris.
So what's new? It has been argued that post-modernism is nothing more--or less-- than the current phase of a modernist tradition (nice oxymoron!) already nearly a century old. True enough, for all the fanfare, post-modernism is, by definition, known by the company it follows. It is too modest (or is that only a ploy?) to pretend to be more than a sequel--which may be nothing more than an aftermath or a hiatus. Still post-modernism peels away from its predecessor in several respects: its blase tone, its sense of exhaustion, its self-conscious bemusement with surfaces. The question remains, whether brand new or a "new improved" modernism, just what does post-modernism express (and repress) at this historical moment? Why should this spirit have surfaces recently and why is it so anxiously debated?
A phenomenon this sweeping cannot be traced to a single cause. In the recent debates, I detect six theories. They are not incompatible, but their emphases are different. Each contributes to an explanation; none is sufficient.
Post-modernism, which fancies itself ever so disdainful of history, turns out to be all too embedded in (guess what) history. Such a variety of forces have funneled together to nourish post-modernism, it would appear the tendency will be with us for some time. What, then, is its impact on our literature? Pastiche lives off borrowed energies. The post-modern mode is compilation, recombination. In the visual and performing arts, this can wonderfully represent the oneness of the world--and the immigrant diversity of New York, Los Angeles, and San Francisco. But pastiche writing tends to become a scrapbook, a compendium of anti-moralism that shrieks moralistically, Look at me! and Who cares? When writing is imprisoned within previous writing, it can't attend to what hasn't been written, what hasn't yet been imagined. Numb, recombinant fiction therefore fails to bring the real news of subsurface feeling, sense and sensibility. Nor can it be a criticism of life. At its worst, it veers toward tourism, mannerism and mood music. Bret Easton Ellis's jejune "Less Than Zero" is an easy target, but I am more discouraged by the evasions of such novels as Joan Didion's "Democracy" and Denis Johnson's "Stars at Noon." in which a stylized third world stands as a shaky backdrop for opaque intrigues. In this fiction, the larger world, whether banal or exotic, is blank; marooned "characters' stare and gesture in its direction. Neither person nor place quite exists, only portents.
By contrast, there is a trenchant side to the post-modernist phenomenon. Consider Donald Bartelme's fiction, which hints at emotion beyond the junkyards of alluring empty, mass-prduced signs. Consider Art Spiegelman's brilliant "Maus," which uses the form of a comic book (!) with talking animals (!!) to tell a story about a survivor telling a story about the Holocaust to his son - not for evasion's sake, and not to trash narrative form as such, but to tell the untellable to those for whom the Holocaust has become "a story." Consider Don DeLillo's "White Noise," which goes beyond post-modernist blankness by suggesting (mockingly) that something is being evaded. The white noise of TV/death is disturbing because something out there--beneath images, surfaces, everyday banality--is trying to break through. Mr. DeLillo's fragments of TV speech are chilling, disruptive, shocking because out there in the wings is a baseline life capable of being chilled, disrupted, shocked. Television intrudes into something which is not television; there are real children, real toxic chemicals, real death.
These works are exceptions; purists would deny they are post-modernist at all. But for the most part, post modernist writing confesses (or celebrates!) helplessness. Make the most of stagnation, it says; give up gracefully. That is perhaps its defining break from modernism, which was, whatever its subversions, a series of declarations of faith --Constructivism's future, Joyce's present, Elliot's unsurpassable past. What is not clear is whether post modernism, living off borrowed materials, has the resources for continuing self-renwal. A car with a dead battery can run off its generator only so long. Exhaustion is finally exhausting. But if it is true that deep social forces have been at work for a long time to produce the present cultural anesthesia, then post-modernism is not going to fade easily. Writers will have to do something else. They will have to cease being stenographers fo the surface. They will have to decide not to coast down the currents of least resistance.
The section has an unwikified "REFERENCES" component that is making the page a nonstandard width. I would move it to the bottom, but I don't see a numbered list in a reference section that some articles have, so I figure that references on this page are being handled some other way. Theshibboleth 23:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-02-02T23:15:00.000Z","author":"Theshibboleth","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Theshibboleth-2006-02-02T23:15:00.000Z-\"Postmodernism,_Planning_&_Urban_Design\"_Section","replies":[]}}-->
I have a Christian World view,and have read several articles on Postmodernism, and other related cultural views. Through the lens of my own beliefs I have reached the conclusion that Postmodernism, Humanism, and Existentialism are like a runaway train in the current culture, hostile to any reason. Postmodernism is the permission to breed the fungus of humanistic philosophies of the greater good at any cost in the petri dish of Existentialism. If you don't believe we live in this selfish stench look around at the agendas fueled by the Humanistic Frankenstein monster masquerading as Multiculturalism; Abortion, Gay Marriage,and Cloning,(Somatic Cell Nuclear Transfer). Like inner-city gangs looking for reason to servive,Pragmatism justifies the crime, Duelism places the blame, and fear of loss bonds together. God help us.TerryA 22:29, 4 February 2006 (UTC)TerryA
[Mere Christianity By C.S.Lewis-- [How Now Shall we live? By Charles Colson] (I must confess I'm getting off subject) To sum it all up, bottom line, Postmodernism standing alone is harmless,(It's the absence of light)just keep the blasting caps(Agendas)away from it.TerryA 05:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-02-07T05:24:00.000Z","author":"TerryA","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-TerryA-2006-02-07T05:24:00.000Z-Note_from_a_Christian","replies":["c-24.216.163.173-2006-02-12T01:08:00.000Z-TerryA-2006-02-07T05:24:00.000Z"]}}-->
I'm not sure what you dislike more "I'm a Christian" Or that I'm sure the Bible's true for you also" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TerryA (talk • contribs) .
"Postmodernism is incredulity towards metanarratives." Jean-Francois Lyotard [1]
I don't it's too big a deal if we Nietzsche and other 'foundational' theorists of post-modernism don't form the basis of this article. I mean, isn't crediting any one (or even several) individuals with the genesis of post-modernism a very modernist idea? Post-modernism, like globalization and wikipedia, is the working of collectives, a decentralized restructuring of knowledge production and the power that holds.
steve
The section called "Ways postmodernism has been described" is just a list of quotes. They may be useful to work out a definition of postmodernism, but the raw quotes belong on Wikiquote .--Yannick 14:36, 4 March 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-03-04T14:36:00.000Z","author":"Ytrottier","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Ytrottier-2006-03-04T14:36:00.000Z-Raw_quotes_belong_on_wikiquote","replies":["c-Spencerk-2006-03-06T03:34:00.000Z-Ytrottier-2006-03-04T14:36:00.000Z","c-Noosphere-2006-03-06T04:21:00.000Z-Ytrottier-2006-03-04T14:36:00.000Z","c-Spencerk-2006-03-26T07:01:00.000Z-Ytrottier-2006-03-04T14:36:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Yannick"}}-->
I think that postmodernism is symbolic of potatoes. Potatoes are ever changing; they start out as a simple tuber, and end up as poop. --69.164.126.162 01:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-03-15T01:22:00.000Z","author":"69.164.126.162","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-69.164.126.162-2006-03-15T01:22:00.000Z-Raw_quotes_belong_on_wikiquote","replies":[]}}-->
The entire section of quotes has been removed, but I have reverted it as I feel it is very useful to have this direct material in the article. It is quite acceptable in a wiki article to have such a section as indicated in Guide to writing a better article. Could we please discuss here before making radical changes to it. Thanks. Tyrenius 05:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-05-03T05:41:00.000Z","author":"Tyrenius","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tyrenius-2006-05-03T05:41:00.000Z-Removal_of_quotes","replies":["c-Sethmahoney-2006-05-03T06:02:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2006-05-03T05:41:00.000Z"]}}-->
I would prefer to see it stay in the article as at present so everything is accessible on the same page. The argument about editors adding favourite quotes is not a valid one for moving the material. It just indicates the need for editorial vigilance. My main concern is that the quotes don't just vanish. If you feel the right thing is to move elsewhere, and provide a suitable link, I am not going to kick up a fuss, provided that the link is clearly there. Tyrenius 16:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-05-03T16:17:00.000Z","author":"Tyrenius","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tyrenius-2006-05-03T16:17:00.000Z-Removal_of_quotes","replies":[]}}-->
A cosmic spaghetti with noodles and onions? Total chaotic outer limits, no where, no space, no form, no soul, no languague, nothing...
The section "The relationship between modernism and postmodernism" contains the following:
This doesn't make sense as no artists are subsequently considered. I hope this is not a paragraph simply copied out of another text. At any rate it will have to be changed.
Tyrenius 12:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-04-15T12:42:00.000Z","author":"Tyrenius","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tyrenius-2006-04-15T12:42:00.000Z-Possible_plagiarism","replies":["c-Spencerk-2006-04-15T18:12:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2006-04-15T12:42:00.000Z"]}}-->
I didn't spot anything on Google, so I wondered if it might have come from a book. It first appeared in the article here. It was merged from Postmodernism to merge but I don't know how to get any further back than that.
Tyrenius 18:48, 15 April 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-04-15T18:48:00.000Z","author":"Tyrenius","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tyrenius-2006-04-15T18:48:00.000Z-Possible_plagiarism","replies":["c-Nuttyskin-2006-06-28T16:40:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2006-04-15T18:48:00.000Z"]}}-->
the paragraph beginning "Post-modernism is not counter-this or anti-that." Sounds more like a rant then NPOV. 209.245.22.60 21:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-04-15T21:00:00.000Z","author":"209.245.22.60","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-209.245.22.60-2006-04-15T21:00:00.000Z-History","replies":[]}}-->
Interpretations such as "sounds more like a rant" constitute a POV.
The prefix "post" is occasionally confused with other prefixes, such as "anti", or "counter".
hello. okay, i know these terms are different. postmodernity is the condition of postmodernism. in otherwords, one is an adjective? I'm eager to do this because i think the combined page would be really really really great. There is already alot of overlap, and even if they remain seperate pages, id like to use alot of material from the postmodernity page, esp. #history. Spencerk 06:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-04-23T06:27:00.000Z","author":"Spencerk","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Spencerk-2006-04-23T06:27:00.000Z-proposed_merge-_postmodernity","replies":["c-Necati.Topyildiz-2006-04-25T22:14:00.000Z-Spencerk-2006-04-23T06:27:00.000Z","c-Sethmahoney-2006-04-25T22:37:00.000Z-Spencerk-2006-04-23T06:27:00.000Z"]}}-->
The merging of Postmodernism and postmodernity is troublesome. It goes beyond one just being an adjective for the other. As described by David Lyon, Postmodernism is the "cultural and intellectual phenomena" while postmodernity is focused on social and political ideas and issues. In a way postmodernism is to postmoderntiy the way a culture is to a society. We wouldn't merge the page on American politics with one on American culture (I realize that example is pretty vague- but it makes the point). I feel they should remain two separate pages, but have a clear and obvious link.
I'd like to add two-cents to this conversation. I think one page with the root 'postmodern' ought to be a central jumping off point for 'the postmodern,' postmodernity, and postmodernism. The main 'postmodern' page could list three branches or versions--the aesthetic aspects (art, architecture, music, etc.); the historical/social/economic aspects; and the theoretical/philosophical perspectives. I think there is significant overlap across the current pages, and some of the explanations of 'postmodernity' are quite strong and would boost the quality of the 'postmodernism' page by being able to eliminate some of the weaker discussions there. Postmodernism page's current strong point is the listing of art, archecture, etc. While I agree that it is inaccurate to suggest that postmodern architecture/art/thought is an effect of postmodernity or a 'postmodern age,' I still think that organizing all three from the starting point of 'postmodern' would make for a better structure. I think it might finally be the case that explaining 'postmodern' does not have to be inherently confusing. --Deborah 02:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-04-27T02:15:00.000Z","author":"Greenbreezegrl","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Greenbreezegrl-2006-04-27T02:15:00.000Z-proposed_merge-_postmodernity","replies":[],"displayName":"Deborah"}}-->
This is the best part from our accumulation on the difference between the terms I would like a better understanding, it just isn't very clear. I have merged alot of very good material from postmodernity, but without deleting it from that page yet. I would say 80% overlap at this point. Spencerk 20:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-05-10T20:20:00.000Z","author":"Spencerk","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Spencerk-2006-05-10T20:20:00.000Z-proposed_merge-_postmodernity","replies":[]}}-->
Sorry to further muddy the waters, but personally I think the article would be significantly more coherent if it were split between postmodernity, encompassing social and political issues (collapse of metanarratives, the hyperreal etc.) and the postmodernist (the aesthetic and cultural movement emerging in response to modernism after the second worl war). —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
They should not be merged. I think the postmodernism article itself should be further split, however, since postmodernisms in different areas of thought can be very different things. (Also, postmodernity is a noun, of course, not an adjective.) --The Famous Movie Director 22:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-05-22T22:07:00.000Z","author":"The Famous Movie Director","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-The_Famous_Movie_Director-2006-05-22T22:07:00.000Z-proposed_merge-_postmodernity","replies":[]}}-->
I think a lot of people would love to learn more about the exciting topics of "postmodernism" and "postmodernity." It's discouraging that the language in these two articles is so ridiculously obscure and pretentious. I'm an undergraduate graduating this May, and consider myself to be a reasonably well-read person. So this is not just the request of a lazy person unwilling to make an effort to stretch herself. I think we can all agree Wikipedia isn't exactly an academic journal. We love it, edit it, and refer to it because the language is accessible. The language of the two articles really suggests that some sixth year anthropology/philosophy/literature graduate students, instead of working on their dissertations, are spending time trying to prove to Wikipedia readers just how smart they are. I couldn't believe what I was reading: "The modern project has undergone, etc etc etc" The "modern project"?! Are these writers serious? The true scholars are those who can clarify difficult topics. I think it's a mark of a truly smart graduate student *help* the masses (people like me) understand what the hell postmodernism is, rather than complicating the issue.
The problem with simplifying postmodernism, or especially deconstruction, to simple terms to explain them is that you can't; you have to use their own jargon and terminology. If there already was a word that meant what a 'deconstruction' means, then, the word 'deconstruction' wouldn't have needed to be created (for this context). Deconstruction is founded on logical inconsistencies in language and meaning, thus, any quotes referencing a deconstruction will be really hard to understand. Plus, I add that deconstruction and other post-modern concepts are just not easy to understand. If you want to 'understand' deconstruction, you're going to have to read quite a bit more than what can be put in a Wikipedia article. Finally, editing out the specific jargon associated with the field will ultimately show a particular editor's bias for meaning. This last statement belies a deconstruction itself; it is unfortunate, but there is no way around the subjectivity of editing/meaning. READ some books about these topics at a library; don't just rely on the executive summary of Wikipedia. I don't agree with a lot of the characterizations of post-modernism put forth in this article; but I do think it is as accessible as it's going to get. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.253.21.180 (talk • contribs) .
Here is someone who seems able to understand and express Postmodern concepts in a way a reasonably intelligent human being can understand. It is a secondary source, verifiable etc, so it can be used. Tyrenius 20:29, 10 May 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-05-10T20:29:00.000Z","author":"Tyrenius","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tyrenius-2006-05-10T20:29:00.000Z-Pretentious_and_overly_complicated_language","replies":[]}}-->
--This is the person who originally posted this topic; writing in response to the person who offered the long response starting with "The problem with simplifying postmodernism," I would have to disagree with your statements. Deconstruction is obviously a difficult topic to understand, and Wikipedia is certainly no substitute for going out and reading books on the topic. Those are valid points you bring up. Nevertheless, I still argue that the really, really great thing about a tool like Wikipedia is that it is so democratic--it spreads knowledge around and gives everyone access to obscure information. The articles on postmodernism and postmodernity are plainly geared toward an elite audience well-versed in the latest cultural studies/linguistics jargon. For readers, it's like we're listening to the cultural elites whisper among each other. For the record, I *do* understand what postmodernism is and have written papers on it, but nevertheless, find the description of the topic in Wikipedia to be unforgivably unclear. I know I'm sounding like someone who is complaining too much and not taking action--obviously I should be spending my time editing the Wikipedia article rather than writing on this board. But I just felt it needed to be stated that no matter *how* difficult a topic postmodernism is, Wikipedia is a great equalizer of information, a democratic tool, and if it can make obscure topics clear for mass audiences (like myself), then it's doing something right. So yes, postmodernism is damned hard to understand, and the descriptions will likely be complex--but yes, it IS possible to write the article so that it sounds like it is geared towards a mass audience (or at least, say, a young adult audience) rather than geared towards sixth year cultural studies graduate students. Yeah, I know I probably shouldn't be hating on grad students so much..
At the moment this article reads more like an essay or original research and is very poorly referenced for the amount of text. Tyrenius 20:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-05-10T20:36:00.000Z","author":"Tyrenius","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tyrenius-2006-05-10T20:36:00.000Z-NOR","replies":["c-Nuttyskin-2006-06-28T16:44:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2006-05-10T20:36:00.000Z"]}}-->
There are huge misunderstandings of postmodernism everywhere on Wikipedia. Let me show you what I found in the Da Vinci Code article a few days ago.
Incredible, isn't it? The problems with this paragraph should be obvious to someone with an extremely basic knowledge of postmodern thought, but this sort of thinking is far too common on Wikipedia. Some people seem to want to drag postmodernism into everything as some kind of scapegoat. I don't believe postmodernism is immune from criticism, but it's simply not necessary to mention a lot of the time. Maybe people who really understand the subject should monitor the article's What links here section and try to remove things like this. --The Famous Movie Director 21:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-05-22T21:51:00.000Z","author":"The Famous Movie Director","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-The_Famous_Movie_Director-2006-05-22T21:51:00.000Z-Misunderstandings","replies":["c-Tyrenius-2006-05-24T01:29:00.000Z-The_Famous_Movie_Director-2006-05-22T21:51:00.000Z","c-Spencerk-2006-05-29T21:55:00.000Z-The_Famous_Movie_Director-2006-05-22T21:51:00.000Z"]}}-->
The following was removed from the main article, as it was inserted as a comment:
Tyrenius 01:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-05-24T01:31:00.000Z","author":"Tyrenius","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tyrenius-2006-05-24T01:31:00.000Z-Postmodernism_in_literature","replies":["c-Tyrenius-2006-05-24T01:32:00.000Z-Tyrenius-2006-05-24T01:31:00.000Z"]}}-->
What is 'modern' and 'postmodern' can perhaps be better discussed by using a more direct approach to the words used to describe an art work. There has been a reluctance to avoid the word 'beautiful' because of the subjective dimension of assigning an aesthetic value. In its stead, some prefer to use the word 'strong' as in 'the image reflects a strong sense of compositon and use of color.' Another semantic approach to avoid 'beautiful' is to to describe a work as 'tough.'
Perhaps all of these attempts to construe visual art with language ultimately fail and what is left to dictate the approved sense of art is whoever holds the keys to the museums or galleries.
This change is in the "Postmodernism in political science" section. I made ths change to avoid sending readers to the Power disambiguation page, which includes topics such as electric power and the IBM POWER microprocessors. There is a topic on economic power; if anyone is upset that there is no longer any association with economic power on this link, please revise. Gerry Ashton 20:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-05-25T20:12:00.000Z","author":"Gerry Ashton","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Gerry_Ashton-2006-05-25T20:12:00.000Z-Changed_link_from_Power_to_Power_(sociology)","replies":[]}}-->
This page has reinvented itself several times since ive been watching it. any thoughts about what layout the page should really have? namely, the introduction and initial summary. i'm all for tables, bullet points, less bloat. your thoughts? Spencerk 23:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-05-29T23:07:00.000Z","author":"Spencerk","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Spencerk-2006-05-29T23:07:00.000Z-a_grand_unified,_un-postmodern_article_for_postmodernism","replies":[]}}-->
I will make an edit today if nobody has objections... my edit concerns the first paragraph. Postmodernism is NOT a cohesive "movement" as the article would have you believe. "Postmodernists" don't get together and collaborate on their "postmodern" theories and crafts and celebrate the "postmodern" era. In fact, few people actually identify themselves as "postmodern" (I myself have never met any). In fact, the only cohesive movement surrounding "postmodernism" is anti-postmodernism. That is to say, the use of the term "postmodern" is really only a phenomenon among critics and intellectuals who disapprove of what they see as "postmodernism". The interesting thing is, none of these intellectuals can agree on what postmodernism really is. In the end, "postmodern" is really nothing more than a catch-all phrase to lump together many unrelated things that traditional intellectuals have a problem with, such as:
- secularism
- commercial art
- "moral relativism" or "pluralism" or "people who dont agree with my own hardliner ideology"
- multiculturalism
- film-editing/montage techniques (how this gets lumped in with ideologies, i dont know)
- sample-based art (sampled music, tarantino films, etc), which (contrary to anti-postmodernist understanding) has been around since the countless adaptations of homer by other classical authors
- the use of non-sequiturs in speech or art
- anything derived from nietzsche
- anything derived from dadaism or surrealism (how these get lumped in with nietzsche, i dont know)
- anything inspired by eastern traditions
- contemporary music, especially black music or what it inspired (blues, rock, rap, etc)
- the trivialization of science
- drugs
- skepticism of authority or tradition
I plan on editing the first paragraph as to state that nobody has really been able to pin down a total definition of what postmodernism is and why it includes all these things (in other words, how these things are somehow related). Just how are these all related?
there are two distinct things that the article (especially the "intellectual criticisms" section) seems to view as one and the same. 1: those who are vehemently opposed to the pursuit of "truth" (who would be nihilists, not postmodernists). 2: those who do not feel obliged to pursue overarching forms of "truth" (who would be postmodernists). postmodernism simply rejects the modernist sense of duty with regard to metanarrative "truth". it doesnt provide anti-truth arguments, but anti-obligation-to-truth arguments. for instance postmodernists abide by scientific processes in their day-to-day lives (needless to say), but at the same time they are skeptical of viewing the entire world in terms of science and crying out "falsifiability" at anything they disagree with. that is to say, they go along with these things, but they dont buy into them as something they owe their entire existence to.
perhaps we can edit something along these lines into the page? 138.89.85.63 23:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-06-06T23:58:00.000Z","author":"138.89.85.63","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-138.89.85.63-2006-06-06T23:58:00.000Z-the_\"intellectual_criticisms\"_section_misses_an_important_distinction","replies":[]}}-->
I agree with the original view, this is a very important point. Many people lump postmodernism and nihilism together and they are not the same. Nihilism basically says there is no Truth, whereas postmodernism says, everything is Truth, or everything contains Truth (even if only to the smallest degree). That is my opinion is my Truth and your opinion is your Truth. My opinion is true in the sense that my perspective and my experience have created one of way of looking at the world that is valid. In criticising/reacting against/straying from modernism, postmodernism is trying to move away from judgements about what perspective is more true than others, it tries to expose the factors that have legitimated one perspective over another and proclaimed it as Truth (the one and only). Anyway, the reference to this in the article seems to have disappeared, so it doesn't really matter. JenLouise 06:54, 6 July 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-07-06T06:54:00.000Z","author":"JenLouise","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-JenLouise-2006-07-06T06:54:00.000Z-the_\"intellectual_criticisms\"_section_misses_an_important_distinction","replies":[]}}-->
The image of the Sydney Opera House is, I believe, out of place. The reasons I believe this are outlined in point form:
Srnec 22:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-06-17T22:10:00.000Z","author":"Srnec","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Srnec-2006-06-17T22:10:00.000Z-Sydney_Opera_House","replies":[]}}-->
I concur, (mostly with Srnec's 1st reason) but furthermore, in my 5 1/2 years of architecture school, I have never heard of the Sydney Opera House described as being Pomo. If you insist on using an image to illustrate postmodern architecture, I'd suggest the work of Charles Willard Moore, Charles Jencks or Michael Graves (the Portland Public Service Building being a notable example). Anyhow, once again, the Sydney Opera house is not considered postmodern. --Blahm 23:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-06-17T23:09:00.000Z","author":"Blahm","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Blahm-2006-06-17T23:09:00.000Z-Sydney_Opera_House","replies":["c-BrownApple-2006-06-18T03:49:00.000Z-Blahm-2006-06-17T23:09:00.000Z","c-Buridan-2006-06-18T12:01:00.000Z-Blahm-2006-06-17T23:09:00.000Z"]}}-->
Buridan, if you already looked it up, why don't you provide a reference, all I see is second rate articles. BUT if Venturi and Jencks spcifically say "This is postmodern architecture" then there isn't much for me to argue about (aside from the fact that I find their contribution to the field of architecture weak, but that's of no relevance here). Buridan, that's what I tried to express, but poorly. The building fits in 'other categories' much more so than in the postmodern one. To me the only feature that may appear postmodern about the building is its allusion to sails. Nothing else. Most postmodernist architecture does not look like that; it is not white and stark, it does not have subtle, but rather painfully obvious historical references and they are used in the wrong context in order to express irony. It would also be worthwhile looking into how Utzon sees himself and would provide clearer evidence as to whether the building is PoMo (and of course the result of all this debating would fit nicely into the articles on Utzon and the Opera House itself). Allow me to reiterate that the work of Charles Willard Moore, Charles Jencks, Michael Graves or Robert Venturi would be a much more appropriate example for this page. --Blahm 14:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-06-18T14:31:00.000Z","author":"Blahm","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Blahm-2006-06-18T14:31:00.000Z-Sydney_Opera_House","replies":["c-Srnec-2006-06-18T20:59:00.000Z-Blahm-2006-06-18T14:31:00.000Z"]}}-->
Blahm, I'd exclude Stern from that group, because he is not "representative" (I believe). Also, I still think that, in an article titled "Postmodernism," a picture at the top may be counterinformative: the postmodernism underlying any painting or building is probably quite different from postmodernism in other contexts and tells us little about postmodernism as an overarching philosophy or worldview. Srnec 04:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-06-19T04:18:00.000Z","author":"Srnec","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Srnec-2006-06-19T04:18:00.000Z-Sydney_Opera_House","replies":["c-Buridan-2006-06-22T10:59:00.000Z-Srnec-2006-06-19T04:18:00.000Z"]}}-->
I have never heard the Sydney Opera House described as a postmodern building. If you're going to illustrate with a piece of architecture, why not go for some Venturi, as he's the arch-postmodernist (Vanna Venturi House comes to mind, though there are many more, maybe even the duck sketch from Learning from Las Vegas), or the AT&T building if you want a famous landmark.
The Derrida quotation is better translated as "there is nothing outside [or beyond] the text." Novaisel 13:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)novaisel__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-06-22T13:49:00.000Z","author":"Novaisel","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Novaisel-2006-06-22T13:49:00.000Z-Quotes_about_postmodernism","replies":[]}}-->
This section is relatively small and says: "In sociology, postmodernity is described as being the result of economic, cultural and demographic changes (related terms in this context include post-industrial society and late capitalism) and it is attributed to factors such as the rise of the service economy, the importance and ubiquity of the mass media (and the subsequent uniformity of social behavior), and the rise of an increasingly interdependent world economy."
I'd love to see a citation for this because as a sociology student who has done a bit on post-modernism and post-modernity, I have not come across anything like this. I am in the process of creating more to add to it from all the sources that we looked at but in the meantime, I think it would be good to get a source for it. JenLouise 07:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-07-06T07:04:00.000Z","author":"JenLouise","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-JenLouise-2006-07-06T07:04:00.000Z-Postmodernism_in_society","replies":[]}}-->
This article is on hold for 7 days for: length-GAs are not designed for excessive long articles and this one is almost 80K-can some be put in subarticles, there is an expert tag-find one and work the issues, very bullety-use more prose especially in the beginning. Rlevse 02:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-07-08T02:19:00.000Z","author":"Rlevse","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Rlevse-2006-07-08T02:19:00.000Z-GA_nomination","replies":["c-Lincher-2006-07-10T03:18:00.000Z-Rlevse-2006-07-08T02:19:00.000Z","c-Lincher-2006-07-10T03:18:00.000Z-Rlevse-2006-07-08T02:19:00.000Z-1"]}}-->
Postmodernism can be characterised as: Experience is Personal, and media that stems from experiences has meaning created by the READER, not the AUTHOR.
This stresses freedom of choice and responsibility for the consequences of one's acts.
Social Theory (theoretical frameworks to explain and analyze social patterns) and Artwork begins to take on Parody, satire, self-reference, and wit.
Self reference could be a sentence such as “74.6% of statistics are completely made up” or a media which contains a reference to itself such as Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy or Tenacious D’s song “Tribute”.
A view of diversity in political power and communication, lacking and dominant canter - also applies to pluralism in thought production, an belief that many different schools of thought will influence each other, which may eventually lead to a more advanced and logical way of thinking.
Finally, importantly, a period of time with such an enormous amount of mass media from newspapers to magazines to films and broadcast where every thought and idea is referential and no originality is given. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.201.57.9 (talk • contribs) 12:31, July 12, 2006 (UTC)
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