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Was Gen. Morgan ever formally accused of a "war crime?" If so, then please cite the actual criminal charges and a reference to such somewhere in the media. I have taken off the allegation for now pending citation. --Petercorless 20:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-01-03T20:27:00.000Z","author":"Petercorless","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Petercorless-2007-01-03T20:27:00.000Z-War_Criminal?","replies":[]}}-->

See footnote 1S710 19:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-01-04T19:25:00.000Z","author":"S710","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-S710-2007-01-04T19:25:00.000Z-War_Criminal?","replies":["c-Petercorless-2007-01-04T23:30:00.000Z-S710-2007-01-04T19:25:00.000Z"]}}-->

Your footnote referred to an NGO, which as no legal authority over Hersi "Morgan"'s status. Until you can point to a formal charge as a war criminal by a court, such as a ruling in Somaliland, or by an international court, to assert that he is a war criminal is POV. While one might wish to call him that, you need to cite an actual criminal investigation by a law enforcement agency, or court indictment or conviction as a criminal. Remember to be careful about biographies of living people. --Petercorless 23:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-01-04T23:30:00.000Z","author":"Petercorless","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Petercorless-2007-01-04T23:30:00.000Z-S710-2007-01-04T19:25:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

His war crimes are widely reported and extensively documented. States have no priority above other institutions in that matter. Somebody is not a war criminal because he is charged or convicted (Hitler never was), but because he committed the crimes. Not calling him a war criminal is really POV in this case.S710 15:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-01-05T15:43:00.000Z","author":"S710","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-S710-2007-01-05T15:43:00.000Z-War_Criminal?","replies":["c-Petercorless-2007-01-05T21:15:00.000Z-S710-2007-01-05T15:43:00.000Z"]}}-->

Unless he is formally charged with a crime, and unless you can cite a formal accusation as such, it is a POV assertion. He might, in the opinion of you and many others, qualify to be charged for war crimes, and you might cite arguments made for that, but that does not qualify him to be listed as a war criminal, such as those on this page: List of war criminals. I am not trying to be unreasonable. If you believe you have proof of his accusation before a legal court, please document it. Also, you might need to make a mention in the article as to where such assertions of him being a war criminal stem from. You must cite external references. I'm not trying to defend the man per se, but to ensure you back up claims with proof. --Petercorless 21:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-01-05T21:15:00.000Z","author":"Petercorless","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Petercorless-2007-01-05T21:15:00.000Z-S710-2007-01-05T15:43:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

What qualifies as a war crime ? Attacks directed at civilians. In the bombing of Hargeisa 70% of the city was razed to the ground. Mohammed Said Hersi was minister of defense and had command responsability. These are proven facts.S710 10:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-01-06T10:50:00.000Z","author":"S710","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-S710-2007-01-06T10:50:00.000Z-War_Criminal!","replies":["c-Petercorless-2007-01-06T12:35:00.000Z-S710-2007-01-06T10:50:00.000Z"]}}-->

You need to document the accusation specifically as a "war criminal" from a court or government. It cannot be your opinion, nor the assertion of a private group. Otherwise, we need to remove this assertion. Again, document your assertion. --Petercorless 12:35, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-01-06T12:35:00.000Z","author":"Petercorless","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Petercorless-2007-01-06T12:35:00.000Z-S710-2007-01-06T10:50:00.000Z","replies":["c-Petercorless-2007-01-06T12:45:00.000Z-Petercorless-2007-01-06T12:35:00.000Z"]}}-->

The closest I can find is a presentation by Somalilanders to consider Hersi a war criminal. However, this is an appeal, and does not constitute a formal charge against him:

• War Crimes committed against the people of Somaliland

There are many people in the world who have conducted heinous acts against other humans. However, it is not legally allowed to personally allege they are war criminals if, in fact, a court of law has not done so. It is considered libel. So please do not go beyond what you can prove. --Petercorless 12:45, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-01-06T12:45:00.000Z","author":"Petercorless","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Petercorless-2007-01-06T12:45:00.000Z-Petercorless-2007-01-06T12:35:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

• POV? In Wikipedia (HRW)Human Rights Watch and (AI)Amnesty International both are considered reliable sources. Both call Mohammed Said Hersi's bombing of Hargeisa a war crime.

The legality of calling Mohamed Said Hersi a war criminal is altogether a different matter. There is no functioning judicial system in Somalia. Only very, very few war criminals have been convicted, if any at all. Would that mean that you could never ever say that somebody had committed a crime in that country? Surely not. Again: my proof is in footnote 1. Any judge in a hypothetical libel case would take the said absence of a functioning judicial system and the documents of HRW and AI into consideration.S710 19:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-01-06T19:54:00.000Z","author":"S710","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-S710-2007-01-06T19:54:00.000Z-War_Criminal!","replies":["c-Petercorless-2007-01-08T01:26:00.000Z-S710-2007-01-06T19:54:00.000Z"]}}-->

I put in a section about it. But again, legally we have to point out that he has never been formally accused by any court. He might be some day, but is not yet. He might never be formally charged. This is often the case in countries where various people who are known, or alleged, to have committed humanitarian crimes have such charges dropped because of political expediencies, a lack of evidence, or sometimes as part of reconciliation and anmesty efforts. Thus, it is a technicality, and that is part of the legal system. Legally, technically, he is not formally accused. It would be like putting "murderer" on the profile of someone who was never formally charged for that crime. It might be a widely-held belief, but it it still a POV argument without legal substantiation. --Petercorless 01:26, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-01-08T01:26:00.000Z","author":"Petercorless","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Petercorless-2007-01-08T01:26:00.000Z-S710-2007-01-06T19:54:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Stylistically, I suggest you find a way to eliminate the text of the multi-part footnotes and see if you can work that into the text of the article itself. Also break out the different references into their own notes. --Petercorless 22:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-01-10T22:47:00.000Z","author":"Petercorless","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Petercorless-2007-01-10T22:47:00.000Z-Really_long_footnotes","replies":["c-S710-2007-01-12T21:44:00.000Z-Petercorless-2007-01-10T22:47:00.000Z"]}}-->

• Yes indeed especially the first footnote is too long. But the introduction must be kept short. Will leave something out.S710 21:44, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-01-12T21:44:00.000Z","author":"S710","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-S710-2007-01-12T21:44:00.000Z-Petercorless-2007-01-10T22:47:00.000Z","replies":["c-Petercorless-2007-01-12T21:50:00.000Z-S710-2007-01-12T21:44:00.000Z"]}}-->

I like many of your footnotes. Simply try to make them two footnotes, like [a][b], instead of one big one, especially if you are referring to different sources. --Petercorless 21:50, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-01-12T21:50:00.000Z","author":"Petercorless","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Petercorless-2007-01-12T21:50:00.000Z-S710-2007-01-12T21:44:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

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Somali 192.145.174.136 (talk) 14:54, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20221031145400","author":"192.145.174.136","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-192.145.174.136-20221031145400-somali","replies":[]}}-->