Why remove Amherst, Wesleyan, and Williams? Despite being part of the "little three" they are also part of the better known NESCAC and therefore often referred to as "little ivies". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.233.42.154 (talk) 02:15, 5 September 2010 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-09-05T02:15:00.000Z","author":"96.233.42.154","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-96.233.42.154-2010-09-05T02:15:00.000Z-Initial_Talk_Page_Comments","replies":[]}}-->
"Little Ivy league" (also, "potted Ivy League") is a nickname for the NESCAC. Whether or not it is an accurate nickname is a whole other, irrelevant, and unimportant argument. All that is needed for relevant information is for this fact to be mentioned on the NESCAC page (which it is). Therefore, this article is unnecessary and should be deleted because, as others have mentioned, it is a nickname and not an official organization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.244.234.254 (talk) 02:07, 9 February 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-02-09T02:07:00.000Z","author":"136.244.234.254","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-136.244.234.254-2009-02-09T02:07:00.000Z-Initial_Talk_Page_Comments","replies":[]}}-->
Self-named group
The Ivy League was a name created in the 50's by those schools themselves. It seems that the term "little ivy" is nothing more than advertising, made up by schools that want to promote themselves as elite and by college guides which want to sell books to students, and upper middle class parents of students, who aren't academically gifted enough to be accepted into a true Ivy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.139.19.20 (talk) 21:01, 27 April 2008 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-04-27T21:01:00.000Z","author":"69.139.19.20","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-69.139.19.20-2008-04-27T21:01:00.000Z-Initial_Talk_Page_Comments","replies":[]}}-->
Well, that ain't true. Acceptance by the best Little Ivies (Williams, Amherst) is in fact much more difficult than acceptance by the "least" Ivy League schools (Penn, Cornell, Brown). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.221.210.74 (talk) 20:51, 28 January 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-01-28T20:51:00.000Z","author":"173.221.210.74","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-173.221.210.74-2013-01-28T20:51:00.000Z-Initial_Talk_Page_Comments","replies":[]}}-->
This is a response the the discussion below which stemmed from Tufts' inclusion in the "Little Ivy" list. The association between NESCAC and the Ivy League seems to depend on geography. In the Northeast, especially in New England, there is a strong link between NESCAC and the Ivy League in that students from elite secondary schools attend colleges from the two conferences (Ivy and NESCAC) with much greater frequently than any other schools or league of schools. Students will often choose between Harvard and Williams, or Brown and Wesleyan. The top two schools chosen by last years graduating class at Belmont Hill School, for example, were Harvard and Trinity. Children of New England brahmin who at one time would have attended now less-accessible (via meritocracy) ivy league schools now, instead, often attend schools like Trinity, Connecticut, and Hamilton causing the NESCAC demographic to more closely mirror one that once predominated ivy league schools, and still is still predominant in popular imagination. Case in point, the association between NESCAC and the Ivy League isn't contrived, but instead exists through a number of social and cultural associations, especially in the Northeast. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.68.5.151 (talk) 18:29, 4 August 2008 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-08-04T18:29:00.000Z","author":"58.68.5.151","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-58.68.5.151-2008-08-04T18:29:00.000Z-NESCAC_As_\"Little_Ivies\"","replies":[]}}-->
Would Wellesley be considered a "little Ivy?
:Yes, as it was one of the Little Three colleges and it has one of the strongest science programs among small liberal arts colleges in the nation.IACOBVS (talk) 15:57, 27 December 2015 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-12-27T15:57:00.000Z","author":"IACOBVS","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-IACOBVS-2015-12-27T15:57:00.000Z-NESCAC_As_\"Little_Ivies\"","replies":[]}}-->
Apparently IACOBVS does not know the difference between Wellesley and Wesleyan.
The Little Ivy League began as an athletic league, just as the real Ivy League, now referred to as the NESCAC (New England Small College Athletic Conference). The term "Little Ivy League" attained some prestige as a common denominator for most of the member schools were the use of exclusive admissions policies and high academic standards. However, there was always a vast different between the academics of say Williams and Trinity, however they always remained in the league together competing against each other as they were, and still are, similar types of schools. The term Ivy League also refers to an athletic league, and many prestigious institutions do not make that list. Why has there not been an uprising against the Ivy League for not including Duke, Stanford, MIT, Caltech, UChicago, and a number of other schohols that have more in common with Harvard, Princeton, and Yale than Brown or Cornell? The answer is because the Ivy League is a historical athletic league, and the Little Ivy League is the same thing. Colgate, Swarthmore, and Haverford are all great liberal arts schools- however they are not members of this league. How could you include only those schools and exclude such great liberal arts schools such as Wellesley, Davidson, Washington and Lee, and many more? The point is- it is nobody's place who edits this page to edit the idea of the Little Ivy League, just as it is no ones place to edit the membership of the actual Ivy League. The Little Ivy League is made up of the NESCAC school members. Colgate, Haverford, and Swarthmore should be removed from this list immediately- and Trinity and Conn should be reinstated. Master20817 13:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-06-09T13:51:00.000Z","author":"Master20817","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Master20817-2007-06-09T13:51:00.000Z-Conn_and_Trinity","replies":["c-Anthropologique-2007-06-27T15:41:00.000Z-Master20817-2007-06-09T13:51:00.000Z"]}}-->
I hear the NESCAC as synonymous with the term "Little Ivy" all the time. Is it because I'm from New England that this is the case? You all seem perplexed, but I grew up with the term. The NESCAC colleges are all brick and stone, ivy covered, (socially) elite schools (regardless of academic rankings). The schools have produced multiple presidents and are filled with students from the most exclusive boarding schools (see matriculation data)... Most of the listed schools are not on par with the ivy league but the association isn't meritocratic, its based on the culture and atmosphere or these schools and this is why there Little Ivies is the NESCAC. I am curious to hear responses to my statement in terms of the geographic location of those who disagree with me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.68.5.151 (talk) 15:17, 10 November 2008 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-11-10T15:17:00.000Z","author":"58.68.5.151","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-58.68.5.151-2008-11-10T15:17:00.000Z-Comment","replies":[]}}-->
I attended one of the listed colleges, and I've never really heard it described as a "Little Ivy." Given the vagueness of this category, I think this page ought to be deleted. It's similar to the absolutely useless term "Public Ivy," a label which has probably been applied to virtually every major state university in the United States. This is a somewhat arbitrary list of top liberal arts colleges; let's leave the "Ivy" label to the football conference that bears that name.
The difference between the "little ivies" and the "public ivies" is that someone actually wrote a well-researched book in the 80's that coined the term "public ivies" and gave a well-thought-out list of them. "Little ivies" is sort of just a catchall term for northeast liberal arts colleges and I have rarely heard the term used, especially related to specific schools. As far as I know there is no official, cite-able list of "little ivies" (and in my opinion, google results do not count as a citation in and of themselves).
- IvyLeagueGrunt 04:59, 7 November 2005 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-11-07T04:59:00.000Z","author":"Slw2014","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Slw2014-2005-11-07T04:59:00.000Z-Comment","replies":[],"displayName":"IvyLeagueGrunt"}}-->
Much of this discussion is pretty meaningless. The term "Little Ivies" is a concoction of insecure admissions officers who represent liberal arts colleges that are less than in the elite category. These are not inferior colleges, just some distance from being "elite".
There are only two elite college and university categories (both, of course, having as much to with athletics as anything else) and these are the Ivy League and the "Little Three" (Amherst, Wesleyan and Williams). Of course, there are other great liberal arts colleges outside of the "Little Three", certainly colleges like Swarthmore, Haverford and Wellesley are overall equals to Amherst, Wesleyan and Williams.
Anthropologique 00:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC) <-----Get over Wesleyan.__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-06-27T00:24:00.000Z","author":"Anthropologique","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Anthropologique-2007-06-27T00:24:00.000Z-Comment","replies":[]}}-->
Anthropologique loves his/her Wesleyan and can't come to terms with the fact that Middlebury, Bowdoin, Haverford, and Swarthmore, all of which are on this list are more "elite" than his/her alma mater. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.110.164.44 (talk) 06:15, 8 January 2009 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-01-08T06:15:00.000Z","author":"98.110.164.44","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-98.110.164.44-2009-01-08T06:15:00.000Z-Comment","replies":[]}}-->
And what criteria do you base that on, Mr. Unsigned? Please, don't fall victim to the ridiculous rankings propaganda produced by US & World News. Have you ever checked the number of Wesleyan graduates who go on to earn PhD's? Do you know that Wesleyan ranks the highest by far of any LAC with respect to scientific papers published, some coauthored with undergraduates. Can you guess which LAC has the highest level of funding from the National Science Foundation? Again, Wesleyan. The bottom line is that the measure of a college's academic PRESTIGE should be based on certain key OUTPUTS, such as the examples I provided. All the colleges you mentioned and Wesleyan are clearly exceptional schools. There is hardly a need to split prestige hairs here. Case closed. London Hawk (talk) 22:06, 16 August 2010 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-08-16T22:06:00.000Z","author":"London Hawk","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-London_Hawk-2010-08-16T22:06:00.000Z-Comment","replies":[]}}-->
Now the page makes even less sense than it did before. Amherst, Williams and Wesleyan are the Little Three, not the "Little Ivies." Why Wesleyan and not any number of equally selective schools -- Swarthmore, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Wellesley, Haverford, Carleton, Pomona, Vassar, Davidson, etc.?
Why does "Little Ivies" redirect to this page? "Little Ivies" is a term in common use which produces 11 pages of google results. "Little Ivies" may or may not be a useful term, but it is a real term.
I've written Little Ivies as its own article, distinct from the Little Three.
(I think this is what started happening to the article when it was first created) asdf You've listed the little ivies as
The first eight internet sources that listed the schools on a Google search listed tham as
Carleton and Pomona aren't listed in any of these lists.
As an aside, doing a quick rank of the schools most commonly in the list:
As a further aside, I think the list of schools ought to look more like it did in the original version of the page, to make them stand out more: [1]·
— Asbestos | Talk 9 July 2005 17:40 (UTC)
Contributors to this page may be interested in this article, which has been proposed for deletion:
Midwestern Ivy League
Please review the article and provide your input on that article's Votes for Deletion page. - 18.95.1.22 03:51, 23 August 2005 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-08-23T03:51:00.000Z","author":"18.95.1.22","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-18.95.1.22-2005-08-23T03:51:00.000Z-\"Midwestern_Ivy_League\"_?","replies":[]}}-->
I am very much opposed to attempting to create any sort of list of "little Ivies," as it would be an exercise in editorial opinion and POV, much like the "list of notable colleges" that was VfDed years ago. Unlike Ivy League or Five Colleges or Public Ivies there is no external reference that can be used as an objective list. Having any sort of list will just be an endless temptation to people to assert that their favorite small college is a "little Ivy." Dpbsmith (talk) 12:35, 24 August 2005 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-08-24T12:35:00.000Z","author":"Dpbsmith","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Dpbsmith-2005-08-24T12:35:00.000Z-No_lists,_please","replies":["c-Dpbsmith-2005-08-24T18:26:00.000Z-Dpbsmith-2005-08-24T12:35:00.000Z"]}}-->
At this point, I really do think that "Williams and Amherst" are the prototypical "little Ivies." They seem to be the schools that are always cited. I guess Neutrality is right that at this point I haven't found a good source for that, but I'd like people to keep their eyes out.
For what it's worth: Google hits on
This really does seem to put William and Amherst in a class by themselves. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:17, 28 August 2005 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-08-28T00:17:00.000Z","author":"Dpbsmith","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Dpbsmith-2005-08-28T00:17:00.000Z-Williams_and_Amherst_are_iviest?","replies":[]}}-->
The PERCEPTION that Williams and Amherst are in "a class by themselves" has essentially to do with marketing distortions (so many things are terribly distorted today, aren't they?). Amherst, Wesleyan, Williams, Swarthmore and Bowdoin are clearly all equals - and Middlebury and Haverford rate as "very near" equals...and then there are the "Women Ivies", with Wellesley, Smith, etc. right there with the best.
Anthropologique 16:00, 29 April 2007 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-04-29T16:00:00.000Z","author":"Anthropologique","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Anthropologique-2007-04-29T16:00:00.000Z-Williams_and_Amherst_are_iviest?","replies":[]}}-->
Anthropologique 16:27, 28 April 2007 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-04-28T16:27:00.000Z","author":"Anthropologique","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Anthropologique-2007-04-28T16:27:00.000Z-Williams_and_Amherst_are_iviest?","replies":[]}}-->
This is a response the the discussion below which stemmed from Tufts' inclusion in the "Little Ivy" list. The association between NESCAC and the Ivy League seems to depend on geography. In the Northeast, especially in New England, there is a strong link between NESCAC and the Ivy League in that students from top private and public schools attend colleges from the two conferences much more frequently than any other schools or league of schools. Students will often choose between Harvard and Williams, or Brown and Wesleyan. The top two schools chosen by last years graduating class at Belmont Hill School, for example, were Harvard and Trinity. Children of New England brahmin who at one time would have attended now less-accessible ivy league schools now instead often attend schools like Trinity, Connecticut, and Hamilton causing the NESCAC demographic to more closely mirror one that was once predominant at ivy league schools, and still is predominant in popular imagination. Case in point, the association between NESCAC and the Ivy League isn't contrived, but instead exists through a number cultural associations, especially in the Northeast.
I believe it should be. Although it is a university, its professional programs are not offered on an undergraduate level. It is a very liberal arts intensive school with requirements like a six semester language requirement and an intensive writing requirement that, like in the case of Brown or Dartmouth, create more of a feel of a liberal arts college than that of a research university.
Tufts University is neither small nor a liberal arts college: it has an many graduate students as undergrads, and is probably better-known for its graduate schools and programs (e.g. Fletcher School). I'm not disputing its academic reputation of being worth of a title that suggests an Ivy League-level education, but it seems to be a noticably odd addition alongside small, rural schools like Williams and Amherst. Kane5187 13:48, 4 February 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-02-04T13:48:00.000Z","author":"Kane5187","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kane5187-2006-02-04T13:48:00.000Z-Should_Tufts_be_on_this_list?","replies":["c-JDoorjam-2006-02-04T14:20:00.000Z-Kane5187-2006-02-04T13:48:00.000Z"]}}-->
<<<<<<<<< Resetting margin...
I concur. I just put a {{fact}} tag on it and will remove it in about a week if nobody comes up with a source citation. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-02-16T19:16:00.000Z","author":"Dpbsmith","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Dpbsmith-2006-02-16T19:16:00.000Z-Should_Tufts_be_on_this_list?","replies":["c-JDoorjam-2006-02-16T20:26:00.000Z-Dpbsmith-2006-02-16T19:16:00.000Z"]}}-->
Seeing how the "Ivy League" is a NCAA DI atheletic conference, shouldn't we define "little ivy" as a NCAA atheletic conference, ie the NESCAC? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.213.222 (talk • contribs) 19:05, November 8, 2006
"Little Ivies" has been tacked on to "Ivy League" in a significant number of edits. In other places, especially a very significant number of preparatory school articles, language has been added using both terms, such as “Numerous graduates from this school have gone on to Ivy League schools, “Little Ivies,” and other excellent institutions.” As these seem to simply be link-dumping and semi-symbiotic peacockery, it is my intention to remove these links. JDoorjam Talk 20:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-02-09T20:02:00.000Z","author":"JDoorjam","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-JDoorjam-2006-02-09T20:02:00.000Z-Little_Ivy_piggy-backing_and_sprinkling","replies":[],"displayName":"JDoorj"}}-->
As said in the revision history, "Baby Ivies" is, at most, a colloquialism for highly selective pre-schools, not the "Little Ivies". JDoorjam Talk 21:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-02-09T21:28:00.000Z","author":"JDoorjam","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-JDoorjam-2006-02-09T21:28:00.000Z-Baby_Ivies","replies":[],"displayName":"JDoorj"}}-->
It's kind of a minor issue, but it should probably be decided upon so that we all know what we're doing. Which shall it be?
All three tend to appear from time to time, and I've usually changed them to Little Ivies, but I figure we just might want to get some consensus. Any opinions? Kane5187 23:10, 25 February 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-02-25T23:10:00.000Z","author":"Kane5187","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kane5187-2006-02-25T23:10:00.000Z-Capitalization","replies":["c-JDoorjam-2006-02-26T00:35:00.000Z-Kane5187-2006-02-25T23:10:00.000Z"]}}-->
What does this category mean? Someone please explain or I will be tempted to delete this category of the list seeing how I have done extensive research on the term, Greene and Greene, but still can't find out what it means.
nywalton (talk) 06:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-05-31T06:30:00.000Z","author":"Nywalton","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Nywalton-2006-05-31T06:30:00.000Z-Greene_and_Greene","replies":["c-Kane5187-2006-05-31T11:57:00.000Z-Nywalton-2006-05-31T06:30:00.000Z"]}}-->
nywalton, we need to have a clean definition of what does and doesn't go in this article so it doesn't revert to its previous state in which people drop in and insert any school they like or to which they wish to pay a compliment. If you want to include other schools, you need to find something that everyone here will accept as a reasonably definitive source. And you need to discuss it and get consensus here.
I'm not sure who keeps removing
but that is a direct quote from the excerpt at http://www.harpercollins.com/global_scripts/product_catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0060953624&tc=cx and it is accurate.
You may disagree with Greene and Greene's judgement, but it is an accurate quotation from a print source that is a well-known college guide and has a reasonable claim to authority.
What do you propose as a definitive, citable source as to what the phrase "Little Ivies" does and does not include? Dpbsmith (talk) 13:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-05-31T13:13:00.000Z","author":"Dpbsmith","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Dpbsmith-2006-05-31T13:13:00.000Z-Greene_and_Greene","replies":[]}}-->
The "Little Three" (Amherst, Wesleyan, Williams) are the "Little Ivies" or "Potted Ivies" and because of the rich history between them, these schools will ALLWAYS be known as such. There are a only a handful of other liberal arts colleges that meet the FULL "Little Ivy" criteria.
Anthropologique 02:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-04-27T02:18:00.000Z","author":"Anthropologique","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Anthropologique-2007-04-27T02:18:00.000Z-Greene_and_Greene","replies":[]}}-->
Master20817 14:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)There are no FULL or PARTIAL criteria for membership in the Little Ivy League. It does not refer to "Hidden Ivies" those are schools judges by one publishing company to be "Hidden Ivies" it does not even try to use the term Little Ivy League. It also does not refer to the "Little Three"- that also refers to exactly what it says- the "Little Three" schools of Amherst, Williams, and Wesleyan, which to note, are not by any means the most prestigious schools in the league- Wesleyan's place would be replaced by Bowdoin or Middlybury. The Little Ivy League refers solely to the Athletic league- the NESCAC. The list of schools are slightly eclectic, as Tufts is larger and a university, not a college, Connecticut College is less prestigious, etc. However, this is the league was created and this is what the term refers to, any acadmec merits associated with the league are merely a social construct, as I mentioned above- a common factor in many of the schools is their academic standards and admissions policies.00re__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-06-09T14:04:00.000Z","author":"Master20817","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Master20817-2007-06-09T14:04:00.000Z-NESCAC","replies":[]}}-->
There is no "Little Ivy League"! The term is a vacuous creation by people who want to boost the public perception / image of certain schools. There is ONLY the "Little Three" - yes it is an ancient informal athletic grouping (since 1899), but it also suggests much more: That Amherst, Wesleyan and Williams have a LONG and CONSISTENT history of academic excellence (and outstanding achievment in many fields) and share similar socio-cultural traditions.
If you really believe that Wesleyan is less prestigious than a Bowdoin or Middlebury you are probably accepting of the woefully distorted marketing garbage that U.S. News puts out every September. Take the sciences for example: Wesleyan overall has by far the strongest science departments of any liberal arts college in the country. It ranks first in NSF (National Science Foundation) funding among its peer institutions (more than double its nearest competitor). Moreover, it is the only liberal arts college to receive funding from the NIH (National Institute of Health); right there with much larger research institutions such as Harvard, Duke, UPenn, Chicago and Johns Hopkins. How about scientific publications? Number one again among liberal arts colleges (more than double of second ranked "Little Three" rival, Williams). Now, that is clearly prestigious! I could go on and on...
Anthropologique 00:35, 27 June 2007 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-06-27T00:35:00.000Z","author":"Anthropologique","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Anthropologique-2007-06-27T00:35:00.000Z-NESCAC","replies":[]}}-->
swampytalk:
I noticed you reverted the changes made on the little ivies entry (removing dubious claims about these colleges being somehow connected to the ivy league). Unfortunately, you didn't give any rationale for why you did this. I assume you realize that "little ivies" have no actual connection to the ivy league, despite what a college guide book may claim. That's why all references to the ivy league were removed. 75.69.133.211 (talk) 12:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-04-19T12:06:00.000Z","author":"75.69.133.211","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-75.69.133.211-2008-04-19T12:06:00.000Z-no_connection_to_the_ivy_league","replies":[]}}-->
The name "Little Ivies" is based on these schools' perceived similarities to the Ivy League and marketed as such. References to the Ivy League are certainly warranted to further inform the reader. Add a criticism section if you disagree instead of censoring legitimate information. Swampyank (talk) 18:33, 19 April 2008 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-04-19T18:33:00.000Z","author":"Swampyank","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Swampyank-2008-04-19T18:33:00.000Z-no_connection_to_the_ivy_league","replies":["c-IACOBVS-2015-12-27T20:19:00.000Z-Swampyank-2008-04-19T18:33:00.000Z"]}}-->
Although this is plausible, and I personally assume it to be more or less true, I don't think it should go in the article unless it can be referenced. Who coined the term? When did they coin it? And how do we know their intentions? Dpbsmith (talk) 23:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)}}__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-08-04T23:05:00.000Z","author":"Dpbsmith","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Dpbsmith-2008-08-04T23:05:00.000Z-Plausible_but_unreferenced_material_on_origin","replies":[]}}-->
What the poster above says is superficially true but essentially false. "Little Ivy" was an adaptation/rehabilitation of "potted Ivy," which was a pejorative used by real Ivy Leaguers to diminish and degrade the smaller and poorer Amhersts, Wesleyans & Williamses. (For a sample use of "potted Ivy", see page 6 of James Reston's book "Collision at Home Plate," discussing Yalie A. Bartlett Giamatti's good-natured ribbing of Williams grad George Steinbrenner.) Of course "Ivy League" started out as a sportswriter's pejorative as well but that's not really relevant here. I think root of all the argument on this topic is that you are trying to document and research a bit of casual, orally passed New England slang, and trying to root your documentation in sources which, however official they might sound, have merely repeated and/or interpreted the slang for ulterior purposes. "Potted Ivy" was the traditional term; it was in use years before the NESCAC was ever founded; apart from the term "Little Three," it was the *only* collective reference to this broader group of schools, and it was orally passed slang. It was a pejorative term to unfavorably distinguish, for example, Tufts from Harvard. (Calm down, Tufts is a great school. It was also a small liberal arts college for most of its history and it bore the brunt of the "potted Ivy" tag because of its perceived status as a safety school for nearby Harvard. Sorry but that's just the way it was.) "Little Ivy" is a created CYA term, used by admissions directors, prep school guidance counselors and people who conduct college surveys to *favorably* distinguish Tufts from, say, Curry College. "Little Ivy" really only shows up in college and school office, in self-serving books about colleges and on the lips of people from New Jersey who like to get exercised about self-serving books about colleges.
I'm sorry, "potted Ivies" sounds too much like a joke to accept without a citation.
I've edited the opening line from
to
If anyone can supply a good citation please put it back, and please accept my apologies for deleting the content rather than marking it as uncited. I justify this action by the fact that a Google search on "potted ivies" bates bowdoin colby hamilton turns up only this Wikipedia article and other content derived from it. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:20, 3 April 2010 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-04-03T18:20:00.000Z","author":"Dpbsmith","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Dpbsmith-2010-04-03T18:20:00.000Z-\"Potted_Ivies?\"_Please_provide_a_citation","replies":[]}}-->
I gave such a citation. James Reston, "Collision at Home Plate," 1991 New York Times Co./HarperCollins Publishers, Inc., p. 6. Here's a link. http://books.google.com/books?id=znjlwbfZOTcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=collision+at+home+plate+reston&source=bl&ots=_9zxg3G2Bz&sig=MykbAblsi_A1h9hXd_aioJSNWAY&hl=en&ei=t4E8TLjPG8GC8gbkrvmnBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false You "justifed" your action by simply ignoring the citation provided and supplanting it with your own failed Google search? That is, to put it charitably, daft. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.15.100.194 (talk) 15:14, 13 July 2010 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-07-13T15:14:00.000Z","author":"69.15.100.194","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-69.15.100.194-2010-07-13T15:14:00.000Z-\"Potted_Ivies?\"_Please_provide_a_citation","replies":[]}}-->
That reference, as you have cited it above, does not contain the cited term. Dpbsmith (talk) 21:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-08-20T21:27:00.000Z","author":"Dpbsmith","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Dpbsmith-2010-08-20T21:27:00.000Z-\"Potted_Ivies?\"_Please_provide_a_citation","replies":[]}}-->
The link no longer provides the cited term, as the page on which the term was used is overviewed and no longer shown. The book, however, does contain the cited term.
I have reverted a move to a new page titled Little Ivy League. There is no such 'League' and the term is not in use by any of the colleges or by NESCAC. IACOBVS (talk) 03:12, 26 December 2015 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-12-26T03:12:00.000Z","author":"IACOBVS","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-IACOBVS-2015-12-26T03:12:00.000Z-Little_Ivy_League_-_Reverted","replies":[]}}-->
Please do not unilaterally delete listed schools. The amorphous and imprecise nature of this category lends itself to contention. However it does seem that the current grid/check feature provides a way in which some schools can be designated a varying number of checks and thus be anointed a "more little ivy" than others. If you truly see a pressing need to completely remove a school, please make your case on the talk page and allow others to respond in kind.
Recent edits, oddly labeled as "vandalism" by an anonymous editor, have centered on an inclusion criterion as a "Little Ivy" based on being as "NESCAC founding member" or charter member (in 1971) rather than on being a "NESCAC actual member." This issue only affects two institutions: Union College (charter member 1971, left 1977) and Connecticut College (joined in 1982). There has been debate on whether these two colleges should be included as "Little Ivies" in the first place, probably based on their admissions rates (both admit more than 35% of their applicants). Neither college is deemed highly selective in this metric and all the other colleges listed in this article admit less than 25% of their applicants, except Bucknell University which admitted 29.5% for the Class of 2019. However, admissions rates are an arbitrary category as this also depends on how many applications the college receives. Neither Union or Connecticut colleges are listed in the latest Greenes' Guide (2009) as Hidden Ivies, but both are listed as "colleges of excellence" in its appendix. This all said, the designation "Little Ivy" is unofficial and colloquial. My edits of this article have mostly been on fine tuning, rather than excluding colleges. I have deleted none, although a recent editor did delete Union College and this was restored by anonymous. IACOBVS (talk) 12:09, 2 January 2016 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-01-02T12:09:00.000Z","author":"IACOBVS","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-IACOBVS-2016-01-02T12:09:00.000Z-NESCAC_Founding_Members_vs._Actual_Members_(aka_Union_College_vs._Connecticut_Co","replies":["c-74.70.116.187-2016-01-02T23:28:00.000Z-IACOBVS-2016-01-02T12:09:00.000Z"]}}-->
As many have noted, this article is contentious as "Little Ivies" it is a colloquialism and unofficial. However, it should at least have an inner logic. I propose that the following inclusion criteria as a possible solution:
If this 'standard' is agreed, the following omissions might occur:
The purpose is not to disparage any institution. It is to create a rational means to designate the term. There are lots of excellent colleges that would not be designated as "Little Ivies" by this criteria (such as Tufts University), but they may well exceed all of them in academic excellence or other criteria.
Is there any concurrence? IACOBVS (talk) 12:30, 2 January 2016 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-01-02T12:30:00.000Z","author":"IACOBVS","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-IACOBVS-2016-01-02T12:30:00.000Z-New_Criteria_Proposed","replies":[]}}-->
While the preceding is an interesting set of criteria, there are other standards to be considered. The following criteria also seem worth consideration:
Wikipedia’s definition of the northeastern United States appears to be a bit imprecise as it may include states as far south as Virginia. A geographical extension of this extreme would allow the University of Richmond to be added. As such, it may be reasonable to limit the geography to New England and New York. This would exclude all the Pennsylvania schools such as Bucknell, Haverford and Swarthmore However, both of these geographical limits would seem to exclude some appropriate schools.
Would it make sense to include schools like Holy Cross, Bard, Wheaton and Skidmore based on their geography and academics?
Furthermore, membership in an athletic conference does not necessarily instantly diminish or grant prestige to a school. As such, there are other athletic associations aside from NESCAC that contain schools that seem appropriate to be included. Swarthmore and Haverford being two cases in point. Union did not drop in quality when it left NESCAC and Connecticut College did not become an overnight sensation when it joined NESCAC. If whom one is athletically associated with is to be a criteria for listing as a “Little Ivy” then playing actual Ivy League schools would seem to be the highest peak of prestige. Thus, it should be noted that Union College, along with Colgate, plays hockey in the ECAC with the Ivy League schools. Union also continues to play a number of the NESCAC schools in non-conference games. Colgate and Bucknell, as Division I schools, do play some Ivy League schools in other sports, notably football.
The article also discusses the Big Three of Harvard, Princeton and Yale as an analog to the Little Three of Amherst, Williams and Wesleyan. It should be noted that prior to the Civil War that the Big Three included Union College and were known as the Big Four. Thus, Union was associated with the top Ivy League schools before the Ivy League even existed.
Taking all of the preceding into account, we come up with the following list of schools to be considered for omission.
Schools to be considered for addition
Do we have a consensus?
As a disclosure, I am not a graduate or an employee of any school mentioned in this article.74.70.116.187 (talk) 21:55, 2 January 2016 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-01-02T21:55:00.000Z","author":"74.70.116.187","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-74.70.116.187-2016-01-02T21:55:00.000Z-New_Criteria_Proposed","replies":[]}}-->
Well, clearly there is no consensus based on the comments from 74.70.116.187. However, we are talking about a colloquial term "Little Ivy" and not about creating a de novo academically elite league. It is certainly not the job of this article to totally redefine the term. My task was to look for reasonable inclusion criteria, centering on NESCAC as the most logical metric, and moving outward from there.
As for geography, I merely suggested the northeastern United States as a limit. This seems entirely reasonable. As for size, the issue was Tufts University which at 10,000 students is hardly "little" by any measure. Also, if a college does not deem itself a small, liberal arts college (like Tufts), I think that is enough, even though Tufts strangely remains in the New England Small College Athletic Conference.
As for institutional age, there are a lot of institutions that are old, but not exactly stellar while far newer institutions, such as Stanford University, are at the top of the charts. I certainly don't think the fraternity system (apparently centered at Union College) is a criterion. Many Ivy League (e.g., Harvard) and "Little Ivy" colleges have no fraternities.
As for academics, well that varies by whatever commercial list one uses, all of them profit making whether it's Forbes or Greenes' or US News and World Report. Greenes' was useful because it published a book on Hidden Ivies and grouped them geographically. However, the standard metric for elite colleges is the competitiveness of its admissions process. Taking the lists given above, we get these admission rates for the Class of 2019:
Colleges proposed for deletion as Little Ivies (Class of 2019 admission rates):
From the above proposed deletion list, Swarthmore wins hands down. Tufts is second. Bates, cited by 74.70.116.187 as academically less competitive (really?), is third.
For colleges proposed for inclusion as Little Ivies (Class of 2019 admission rates):
These admission rates are in the same league as Trinity College (31.1%), Connecticut College (36.2%) and Union College (37%) which are currently on the "Little Ivies" table in this article.
And, lest it is argued that admissions rates are not a valid metric, I will list some highly regarded, academically elite colleges (mixed assortment - some liberal arts, some Ivy League, and some research universities) for comparison (Class of 2019 admission rate):
In summary, of the colleges proposed for deletion as Little Ivies, all are highly selective (admitting less than 25%), except perhaps Trinity and Conn. Swarthmore ranks with Cornell. Bates ranks with Davidson. Of the colleges proposed for addition as Little Ivies, all are less selective than the currently listed colleges except Trinity, Conn and Union. Lafayette ranks with Trinity. Holy Cross ranks with Conn and Union. The others are in between with Dickinson as the outlier. However, all of these colleges are excellent institutions.
In any event, I still think my proposal has merit. I would be interested in other voices. IACOBVS (talk) 07:13, 3 January 2016 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-01-03T07:13:00.000Z","author":"IACOBVS","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-IACOBVS-2016-01-03T07:13:00.000Z-Reply","replies":[]}}-->
One of the points that my prior post hopefully illustrates is that a variety of different arguments can be made for the inclusion or exclusion of most of the schools on this list. As such is the case, the current grid and check graphic appears to do as good a job as anything to demonstrate that notion. I took into account academic output; athletic affiliations, including NESCAC; geographical pertinence; historical relevance; and institutional size. I happen to believe that a topic as murky and unclear as this one merits a variety of both quantitative and qualitative evaluations, rather than the mere application of a single metric. As can be clearly seen, most of the candidates were posited for omission were for non-academic reasons. The only schools put up for academic reasons were Connecticut College, Trinity College and, rather surprisingly, Bates College. They were put forth due to being the lowest ranked Little Ivy schools on the Forbes 2015 list. The case of Bates may have been a surprise to those who are only familiar with the US News rankings. Perhaps Bates’ relatively low endowment had a disproportionate impact on the ranking. Schools that perennially top the various academic ranking list such as Swarthmore and Haverford were quite clearly put forward for non-academic reasons.
Athletic affiliations, school history, and social commonality are also a factor. Following the limited criteria of IACOBVS, the US Military Academy at West Point should be a prime candidate for inclusion. With an admissions rate of 9.5% it becomes the best academic school on the list, per that sole metric. With less students than Tufts, a LAC designation and a Hudson Valley location it seems that it should be a surefire bet for inclusion. So why not include this clearly excellent school? Well, it has to do with the social spheres where its students circulate. The school does not rub athletic social elbows with the Little Ivies as it plays division one sports, there have never been any fraternities to facilitate inter-institutional comradery, and the admissions process is probably based more on merit and less on an “old-boy” network than the Little Ivies. It appears that these qualitative measures are not so easily dismissed as one would wish.
The geography question was applied to schools such as Swarthmore, Haverford and Bucknell as they are located in Pennsylvania. As such they have never been in NESCAC, nor do they regularly play NESCAC schools. Are they simply too far from the Little Ivies’ Williams-Amherst epicenter to qualify?
Institution size was applied to Wesleyan, Bucknell and Tufts. While Tufts at 10k+ is clearly too large, Bucknell at 3,600+ and Wesleyan at 3,200+ are about three times the size of Haverford at 1,100+. Is that too much of a difference? Does Wesleyan’s focus on research in the physical sciences move it too far away from being a traditional LAC?
It would seem that viewing all factors in aggregate could provide a clearer view. For example, does Bucknell’s size, location and division one athletics add up to enough of a collective reason to remove it? If we are including Bucknell then why not Lafayette or Lehigh? It would also seem that my set of criteria are more broad-based than that of IACOBVS. Unfortunately, IACOBVS seems to be transfixed on a single metric –the admissions rates of the schools.
The current Ivy League Wikipedia page does not even mention admission rates at all. Instead, it lists the endowment of each school. Despite their problems, both Forbes and US News at least know enough about the rudimentary use of statistics to understand that to base a ranking upon a single metric would be grossly misleading, at best. For example, Smith College, ranked 14 in US News, holds a 42.2% acceptance rate. Based solely on that one metric, Smith would be considered academically inferior to be a Little Ivy. That notion is obviously wrong. Smith is clearly a better school than that single metric bears out. The use of admission rates as the sole metric for ranking schools reveals two immediate problems. First, it is a metric that is easily manipulated by admissions offices. Admissions offices that have frank and candid discussions with students about their chances will naturally have higher admissions percentages than schools that dangle hope in front of marginal candidates. Furthermore, admissions rates only reflect input and provide no insight into the output of a school. In order to rectify this disparity, it may be reasonable to also look at an output metric such as 6-year graduation rates.
Candidates for omission: Colleges proposed for deletion as Little Ivies (6-year graduation rates):[2]
From the above proposed deletion list, Bates, Trinity and Connecticut are the three lowest. The ranks of these three schools do happen to match the same order of their rankings in Forbes.
For colleges proposed for inclusion as Little Ivies (6-year graduation rates):
From this list we can see that Holy Cross and Lafayette both exceed Bucknell, Bates, Trinty, and Connecticut. In fact, Holy Cross did exceptionally well as it was only exceeded by Swarthmore and Haverford. Franklin and Marshall and Skidmore are up right with Bates while Dickinson is on par with Trinity and Connecticut. Bard appears to be an outlier.
In view of the 6-year graduation rates and in conjunction with the Forbes rankings, it seems that Bates, Trinity and Connecticut would be the most likely candidates for omission from the previous proposed list while Holy Cross and Lafayette make strong cases for inclusion.
For the curious, here are some 6-year graduation rates at other top schools, lest one think this is not a valid metric
These figures do appear to reflect somewhat reasonable correlations with their respective academic reputations in various published rankings.
As an aside, I did fact check IACOBVS on their claim that Harvard has no fraternities. Sorry, but Harvard does.[3]
All of the schools mentioned above have excellent reputations for delivering fine educations. I happen to believe that my methodology is more inclusive and takes into account far more nuance with its focus on both qualitative and the qualitative measures –something that the imprecise nature of this topic would appear to require.74.70.116.187 (talk) 22:00, 3 January 2016 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-01-03T22:00:00.000Z","author":"74.70.116.187","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-74.70.116.187-2016-01-03T22:00:00.000Z-Reply_2","replies":[]}}-->
I confess to 74.70.116.187 and to all that I didn't think Harvard had official frats. As a native Bostonian who frequented Harvard Square, Greek life at Harvard was noticeably absent unlike at Boston University or MIT where it was very visible. I stand corrected.
The interesting thing about Bates College among the Maine LACs is that it serves as a symbol of the difficulty in deciding which colleges are somehow demonstrably "Little Ivies" and which are not. However, this is an unofficial and colloquial term. My solution was to rely on NESCAC as the core and to branch out within reason, using geography, admissions rates, and other factors. Greenes' Hidden Ivies is just one of many ranking systems. All are flawed in some ways. The old standard, once readily cited by colleges, was Barron's Profiles of American Colleges which ranked colleges from "most competitive" to "noncompetitive." It is now in its 32nd year. Bates only reached the "most competitive" designation in 1987. This is rather late in the game when compared to the Little Three of NESCAC or colleges like Swarthmore which had long been deemed to be in this category. Colby College was also quite late to this game, later than Bates. However, Colby is older (by 36 years) but more importantly richer than Bates. Bates tends to attract do-gooder students who often do not seek high paying employment, but rather work in the non-profit sector. Unlike Williams which is known for producing graduates who are high earners and give back generously to Williams as alumni, Bates simply doesn't produce alumni that have this sort of capital. Bowdoin is older and richer than Colby - and it follows that it outranks Colby. Thus, the rankings reflect not simply academic excellence, but both the material success of graduates and college wealth (which is very much tied to alumni wealth). It is not surprising that college endowment will strongly correlate to the various rankings. In the Forbes ranking equation, academic excellence factors in at just 10%.
However, the main thrust here is a logical designator for what constitutes a Little Ivy. NESCAC still remains the core of the Little Ivy group. The idea that the Little Ivies must be small liberal arts colleges with excellent academics located in the northeastern USA also seems to be accepted by all.
If we look at the current grid listing of Little Ivies, we can bring two metrics together: acceptance rate (Class of 2019) and 6-year graduation rate.
Current listed Little Ivy colleges - Class of 2019 acceptance rate / 6-year graduation rate
One could argue about which colleges are not Little Ivy based on the above statistics, but it would seem that Bates at least should be able to remain as it is matched with Colby when adjusted. But I may be biased as I went to Bates (a long time ago). However, I am not biased against Union and Conn. I still think my formula works because it allows for other metrics if the NESCAC charter+current member is not met. IACOBVS (talk) 05:54, 4 January 2016 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-01-04T05:54:00.000Z","author":"IACOBVS","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-IACOBVS-2016-01-04T05:54:00.000Z-Reply_to_Reply_(or_\"Kick_out_Bates\")","replies":[]}}-->
To begin with, Bates should obviously not be kicked out for academic reasons. I also do not believe in kicking out Union, Trinity or Connecticut. The fact that Bates is ranked 25 in the US News rankings should be enough alone to keep it on the list, despite the issues some of us may have with the subjectivity of many rankings. (As an aside, I have a friend who went to Bates and now has two doctoral degrees, so I am aware of the school’s quality.) Kicking out Bates or Union for academic reasons would certainly necessitate also kicking out both Trinity and Connecticut. West Point, Holy Cross and Lafayette do however look rather reasonable for inclusion, based solely on cursory academic overviews. West Point does seem like an odd fit for my previously discussed reasons.
Per US News:[4]
Per Forbes:[5]
Trinity and Connecticut come up at the bottom of both lists. Any evaluation that does not at least consider these rankings would seem to be out of step with generally accepted practice. By the way, the NESCAC article has the US News ranking of each current school listed. If the Forbes list is so out of line, tell me which Little Ivy schools, current or candidate, are very incorrectly ranked.(By the way, Bates' own Wikipedia page mentions Forbes.) Using pure rankings and numbers, West Point looks like it should be added. However, my previous post has already explained why this would appear to be an incongruent addition.
As I will reiterate again, my point was to show that one can cherry-pick a metric or two and put almost any of the listed schools up for consideration for deletion. That is why I have continuously argued the case for a view of an aggregate of various factors, both quantitative and qualitative.
As an example, Bucknell, while an extraordinarily strong school, just seems strange to include based on its size, geography, and division one athletics. (Does Bucknell play any NESCAC schools in anything?) Colgate mirrors many of the same factors as Bucknell, but the New York location and smaller size may tip the balance. I think these are schools are good examples of where such factors as history, tradition, geography, size and athletics may trump pure academics. Union, in contrast to Bucknell, has swim meets with Williams, Amherst, Middlebury and Hamilton. Out of a schedule of nine meets nearly half are against some of the top NESCAC schools- just in this one sport. Of course, any evaluation should also include academic measures. I believe that to try to evaluate schools without a broad consideration of factors is to veer into a rather narrow-minded approach.
This article is called “Little Ivies” and not “The Northeast’s Liberal Arts Colleges with the Highest Scores in Two Metrics.”
As I have said before, these are all excellent schools that provide top-quality educations and that we are probably engaging in some hairsplitting snobbery on some level. However, I suppose that comes with the territory in this kind of article. 74.70.116.187 (talk) 00:06, 7 January 2016 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-01-07T00:06:00.000Z","author":"74.70.116.187","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-74.70.116.187-2016-01-07T00:06:00.000Z-Reply-_Just_two_metrics,_really?","replies":[]}}-->
Looking for an additional metric, it became clear that overall endowment and perhaps more importantly endowment per student are factors when it comes to Little Ivies. I added the 2014 endowment per student to the grid and I added 2014 overall endowment to the table below it with founding dates and church denominations.
It can be clearly seen that the top performers in almost all commercial lists and other rankings are the wealthiest colleges. Swarthmore, Amherst, and Williams have the highest endowments and the highest endowment per student. Bowdoin is not far behind. The middle honors for endowment per student go to Colby, Hamilton, Haverford, Middlebury, and Vassar. On the lower end are Bucknell, Colgate, Trinity, and Wesleyan. In the lowest end, with less than $200,000 of endowment per student, are the relatively impoverished colleges of Union, Bates, Conn., and (surprisingly) Tufts. With 10,000 students, Tufts endowment is spread thin.
What is interesting about this metric is where it makes a difference. Clearly, the wealthiest colleges with over $1 million per student in endowment are the top performers. Bowdoin also trumps its relatively poorer cousins. However, once the range is in the $400,000 per student of endowment or less, the wealth factor has a less pronounced effect. The colleges in the middle of the endowment scale are not necessarily more selective than the poorer colleges. Among the colleges where the endowment is decidedly modest or the number of students drives down the endowment per student (Tufts, Wesleyan), the wealth correlation to selectivity in admissions breaks down. Tufts rejects 84.2% of its applicants, but has a thinly spread endowment. Wesleyan rejects 78.1% of its applicants making it more selective than many of the wealthier colleges in terms of endowment per student. Bates College, poorer than any college except Conn. in terms of endowment per student, still remains very selective in rejecting 78.6% of its applicants. IACOBVS (talk) 22:23, 4 January 2016 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-01-04T22:23:00.000Z","author":"IACOBVS","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-IACOBVS-2016-01-04T22:23:00.000Z-Additional_Metrics:_Endowment_and_Endowment_per_Student","replies":["c-74.70.116.187-2016-01-07T03:17:00.000Z-IACOBVS-2016-01-04T22:23:00.000Z"]}}-->
Please discuss here before unilaterally deleting entire sections or tables. I have restored the endowment per student to the grid. One editor deemed it completely unnecessary as the total endowment was added to the lower table. I think it is useful as collegiate wealth most certainly is a metric. More so, endowment per student is more telling than total endowment, as can be seen in the case of Tufts University. Williams has the largest endowment, but Swarthmore has the most endowment per student.
While this metric may put Bates in a bad light, Bates has been very open about the issues surrounding its low endowment. Remarkably it is still able to count as peer institutions these far wealthier LACs (e.g., Pomona, Bowdoin, Amherst, etc.).[6] IACOBVS (talk) 21:44, 5 January 2016 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-01-05T21:44:00.000Z","author":"IACOBVS","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-IACOBVS-2016-01-05T21:44:00.000Z-Discuss_here_before_deleting_whole_sections_or_tables","replies":["c-74.70.116.187-2016-01-06T23:13:00.000Z-IACOBVS-2016-01-05T21:44:00.000Z"]}}-->
This table can't be posted on the page as it constitutes original research because it is analysis of facts and not cited elsewhere. However, I think the results are useful for discussion. The table aggregates the three rankings from US News, Forbes, and Washington Monthly into a single number (rounded up to the next whole integer) with the exception of Tufts where only the rank from US News is used.
IACOBVS (talk) 02:55, 10 January 2016 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-01-10T02:55:00.000Z","author":"IACOBVS","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-IACOBVS-2016-01-10T02:55:00.000Z-Aggregate_Ranking","replies":["c-74.70.116.187-2016-01-10T04:13:00.000Z-IACOBVS-2016-01-10T02:55:00.000Z"]}}-->
Candidate Schools
The overall rank becomes more useful as it allows Tufts to be included in the same rank list rather than cross-listing from a national university category. Again, Trinity and Connecticut are far back. Holy Cross as well as Franklin & Marshall look pretty good. Lafayette places respectably.74.70.116.187 (talk) 05:15, 10 January 2016 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-01-10T05:15:00.000Z","author":"74.70.116.187","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-74.70.116.187-2016-01-10T05:15:00.000Z-Aggregate_Ranking","replies":["c-IACOBVS-2016-01-10T09:17:00.000Z-74.70.116.187-2016-01-10T05:15:00.000Z"]}}-->
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