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Title

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The article should be under Cairo Station, which is what it is overwhelmingly known as in English; "also known as Cairo Station" is actively misleading. As far as I can tell, nobody but IMDb calls it "The Iron Gate." Languagehat (talk) 01:22, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-14T01:22:00.000Z","author":"Languagehat","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Languagehat-2013-11-14T01:22:00.000Z-Title","replies":["c-Clarityfiend-2013-11-14T03:13:00.000Z-Languagehat-2013-11-14T01:22:00.000Z"]}}-->

Chahine's official website, The Guardian's obituary] and others agree. ~~I've tagged Cairo Station for speedy deletion so this can be moved there.~~ Clarityfiend (talk) 03:13, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-14T03:13:00.000Z","author":"Clarityfiend","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Clarityfiend-2013-11-14T03:13:00.000Z-Languagehat-2013-11-14T01:22:00.000Z","replies":["c-Clarityfiend-2013-11-14T08:42:00.000Z-Clarityfiend-2013-11-14T03:13:00.000Z"]}}-->

On second thought, maybe this article should be renamed Cairo Station (film), and Cairo Station redirected to Ramses Station, with a hatnote to the film. Thoughts? Clarityfiend (talk) 08:42, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-14T08:42:00.000Z","author":"Clarityfiend","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Clarityfiend-2013-11-14T08:42:00.000Z-Clarityfiend-2013-11-14T03:13:00.000Z","replies":["c-Languagehat-2013-11-14T15:17:00.000Z-Clarityfiend-2013-11-14T08:42:00.000Z"]}}-->

Excellent idea, I totally agree. Languagehat (talk) 15:17, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-14T15:17:00.000Z","author":"Languagehat","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Languagehat-2013-11-14T15:17:00.000Z-Clarityfiend-2013-11-14T08:42:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

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Requested move

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved to Cairo Station. --BDD (talk) 19:31, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-26T19:31:00.000Z","author":"BDD","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-BDD-2013-11-26T19:31:00.000Z-Requested_move","replies":[]}}-->

The Iron Gate → Cairo Station (film) – This is the English title most often used by reliable sources. In particular, director Youssef Chahine's official website (as linked above) lists it (in his filmography) as Cairo Station, as does the 50th anniversary DVD release, The Hollywood Reporter, The New York Times obituary, Washington Post obituary, the BBC, The Guardian (a film review, not the obituary linked above), Empire Magazine, Chicago Reader, Time Out, the Harvard Film Archive, books such as Remembering Cosmopolitan Egypt: Literature, culture, and empire and Arab Cultural Studies: History, Politics and the Popular, an article in the Journal for Cultural Research, the movie poster, etc. The list goes on and on. The same cannot be said for The Iron Gate. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:55, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-18T07:55:00.000Z","author":"Clarityfiend","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Clarityfiend-2013-11-18T07:55:00.000Z-Requested_move","replies":["c-Betty_Logan-2013-11-18T10:35:00.000Z-Clarityfiend-2013-11-18T07:55:00.000Z","c-Erik-2013-11-18T15:20:00.000Z-Clarityfiend-2013-11-18T07:55:00.000Z","c-Loeba-2013-11-19T17:51:00.000Z-Clarityfiend-2013-11-18T07:55:00.000Z","c-Languagehat-2013-11-20T14:54:00.000Z-Clarityfiend-2013-11-18T07:55:00.000Z","c-Erik-2013-11-20T17:11:00.000Z-Clarityfiend-2013-11-18T07:55:00.000Z"]}}-->

Oppose per WP:NATURALDIS. There are three titles that are frequently used in English language sources: The Iron Gate, Cairo Station and Bab el hadid (the native title). Here is a sample:

IMDB - World-wide (English title) The Iron Gate
Rotten Tomatoes - Bab el hadid (Cairo Station) (The Iron Gate)
Marrakech International Film Festival - BAB EL HADID (The Iron Gate)
TCM - Cairo Station, known as The Iron Gate in some regions
Cannes Film Festival - The Iron Gate
Rotterdam Film Festival - Bab el hadid/The Iron Gate
Newsweek - Bab el Hadid (The Iron Gate)
Timout Dubai - The Iron Gate (1958) ... A vintage Egyptian drama, also known as Cairo Station
Saudi Gazette - Bab Al-Hadid (‘The Iron Gate’)
University of California - Cairo Station (The Iron Gate) (Bab al-Hadid)

While Cairo Station tends to be the preferred title in American sources, both The Iron Gate and Bab el hadid both enjoy widespread usage. It is not necessary to move the article to a disambiguated title when there are two acceptable alternatives per WP:NATURALDIS:

"If it exists, choose an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title ...If natural disambiguation is not possible, add a disambiguating term in parentheses, after the ambiguous name."

If the proposed move had been to Cairo Station without the disambiguator then the rename may have been a bit more compelling, but it is unnecessary to move the article to a disambiguated form of the US release title, especially when the native title is available to us as well. Betty Logan (talk) 10:35, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-18T10:35:00.000Z","author":"Betty Logan","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Betty_Logan-2013-11-18T10:35:00.000Z-Clarityfiend-2013-11-18T07:55:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Comment: Why is the request to move to Cairo Station (film) and not just Cairo Station? I'm not seeing any other topic with this title. If we do not need the disambiguation term, then natural disambiguation would not be a reason to oppose. Also, while it seems like either title has been used, I am noticing that the film is titled Cairo Station in home media (DVD is titled that and not The Iron Gate) and for broadcasting purposes (at tvguide.com, Cairo Station comes up where The Iron Gate does not). I think that with evidence for either title, the better one to use is the one that would be publicly recognized. Erik (talk | contribs) 15:20, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-18T15:20:00.000Z","author":"Erik","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Erik-2013-11-18T15:20:00.000Z-Clarityfiend-2013-11-18T07:55:00.000Z","replies":["c-Clarityfiend-2013-11-19T00:08:00.000Z-Erik-2013-11-18T15:20:00.000Z"]}}-->

The literal translation of Bab el hadid appears to be "the iron gate". However, that doesn't mean it's the preferred title in English. The instances listed by Logan either have Arabic ties (e.g. the Newsweek article is written by a Moroccan novelist and poet) or are from foreign sources or are secondary alternatives. As I noted in the section above, I believe Cairo Station should direct to Ramses Station with a hatnote to the film. I don't understand all this distaste for "(film)". A lot of films have dabs. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:08, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-19T00:08:00.000Z","author":"Clarityfiend","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Clarityfiend-2013-11-19T00:08:00.000Z-Erik-2013-11-18T15:20:00.000Z","replies":["c-Betty_Logan-2013-11-19T00:56:00.000Z-Clarityfiend-2013-11-19T00:08:00.000Z"]}}-->

You have made an argument for moving the article to Cairo Station, not to Cairo Station (film). I don't oppose a move to Cairo Station, I oppose the disambiguation of it on the grounds it is not consistent with the disambiguation guidelines. Cairo Station (film) is an invented Wilkipedia title that has no real world usage; both The Iron Gate and Bab el hadid are both acceptable alternatives that do have real-world usage in English language sources. COMMONNAME may favor the selection of Cairo Station over The Iron Gate and Bab el hadid, but NATURALDIS favors The Iron Gate and Bab el hadid over Cairo Station (film). Betty Logan (talk) 00:56, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-19T00:56:00.000Z","author":"Betty Logan","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Betty_Logan-2013-11-19T00:56:00.000Z-Clarityfiend-2013-11-19T00:08:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Support move to "Cairo Station" (no disambig, since it isn't needed). It is clearly the best known English name of the film. --Loeba (talk) 17:51, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-19T17:51:00.000Z","author":"Loeba","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Loeba-2013-11-19T17:51:00.000Z-Clarityfiend-2013-11-18T07:55:00.000Z","replies":["c-Clarityfiend-2013-11-20T06:10:00.000Z-Loeba-2013-11-19T17:51:00.000Z"]}}-->

The consensus seems to favor a move to Cairo Station. I have no objection to that, with a hatnote to the real-life place. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:10, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-20T06:10:00.000Z","author":"Clarityfiend","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Clarityfiend-2013-11-20T06:10:00.000Z-Loeba-2013-11-19T17:51:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Support move to "Cairo Station." I am a film fan and know a number of film fans, and none of them know this movie as "The Iron Gate." Languagehat (talk) 14:54, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-20T14:54:00.000Z","author":"Languagehat","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Languagehat-2013-11-20T14:54:00.000Z-Clarityfiend-2013-11-18T07:55:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Support move to Cairo Station without disambiguation; I like the idea of a hatnote pointing to Ramses Station. Also supporting the move due to the visibility of Cairo Station over The Iron Gate to modern-day audiences. Erik (talk | contribs) 17:11, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-20T17:11:00.000Z","author":"Erik","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Erik-2013-11-20T17:11:00.000Z-Clarityfiend-2013-11-18T07:55:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Chahine's casting himself in the lead (as Qinawi)

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According to Eddie Muller, introducing the film this past evening at a the Noir City festival in Seattle, Chahine's cast himself as Qinawi only because no major actor in Egyptian cinema (or Arab cinema more broadly) would take the role. I don't have anything citable for that, though. (Muller would certainly be citeable if he's said that in writing.) Anyway, mentioning here because if someone can turn up something citeable for that it would probably be worth adding to the article. - Jmabel | Talk 06:27, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240218062700","author":"Jmabel","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Jmabel-20240218062700-Chahine's_casting_himself_in_the_lead_(as_Qinawi)","replies":[]}}-->