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Hello, OckRaz, and welcome to Wikipedia! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question and then place {{helpme}} before the question on your talk page. Again, welcome! ... discospinster _talk 03:33, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-12-09T03:33:00.000Z","author":"Discospinster","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Discospinster-2007-12-09T03:33:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Well, I'm glad you figured it out. Now you just need to add it to the raw code of your signature with [[Special:Contributions/OckRaz]].

As for images on your user page -- that's acceptable, but they have to be hosted on Wikipedia or Wikimedia Commons. If it's hosted somewhere else it won't show up on the page. Under the "Toolbox" (which you have already found) there will a link saying "Upload file". There is a wizard that will help you with all the steps. It's important to remember that the image must either be a free-to-use image (e.g. in the public domain, licensed under a Creative Commons license, etc.) or the copyright must be owned by you. (The "fair use" exception probably wouldn't work because it's on your user page and not an article.) See Wikipedia:Image use policy for more information. If you need help locating a free image, or if you have any questions about copyright or uploading, I can help you out with it. ... discospinster _talk 04:19, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-11-06T04:19:00.000Z","author":"Discospinster","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Discospinster-2011-11-06T04:19:00.000Z-Re:Signature_Question_&_User_Page_Image_Files","replies":[]}}-->

Hi, I saw your user logo and couldn't resist vectorising it. Please feel free to use it if you wish. --The Pink Oboe (talk) 15:49, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-11-12T15:49:00.000Z","author":"The Pink Oboe","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-The_Pink_Oboe-2011-11-12T15:49:00.000Z-User_logo","replies":[]}}-->

Hello, OckRaz. You have new messages at Talk:Contragestion.
Message added 12:46, 28 August 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:46, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-08-28T12:46:00.000Z","author":"Bluerasberry","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T12:46:00.000Z-Talkback","replies":["c-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T14:33:00.000Z-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T12:46:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Blue Rasberry"}}-->

I replied to you again. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:33, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-08-28T14:33:00.000Z","author":"Bluerasberry","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T14:33:00.000Z-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T12:46:00.000Z","replies":["c-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T16:21:00.000Z-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T14:33:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Blue Rasberry"}}-->

And again. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:21, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-08-28T16:21:00.000Z","author":"Bluerasberry","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T16:21:00.000Z-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T14:33:00.000Z","replies":["c-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T16:41:00.000Z-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T16:21:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Blue Rasberry"}}-->

Again. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:41, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-08-28T16:41:00.000Z","author":"Bluerasberry","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T16:41:00.000Z-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T16:21:00.000Z","replies":["c-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T17:31:00.000Z-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T16:41:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Blue Rasberry"}}-->

Again. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:31, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-08-28T17:31:00.000Z","author":"Bluerasberry","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T17:31:00.000Z-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T16:41:00.000Z","replies":["c-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T19:29:00.000Z-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T17:31:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Blue Rasberry"}}-->

Again. Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:29, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-08-28T19:29:00.000Z","author":"Bluerasberry","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T19:29:00.000Z-Bluerasberry-2012-08-28T17:31:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"Blue Rasberry"}}-->

If you need any help with editing any articles, please let me know. I primarily edit articles on history, politics, and demographics here and I also lurk around the Wikipedia Reference Desk a lot. You said something about the morning after pill and implantation, so here are some good sources for you in regards to this:

• http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/health/research/morning-after-pills-dont-block-implantation-science-suggests.html?_r=1
• http://healthland.time.com/2012/06/07/morning-after-pill-akin-to-abortion-the-science-says-no/

I hope this helps. Futurist110 (talk) 20:31, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-09-01T20:31:00.000Z","author":"Futurist110","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Futurist110-2012-09-01T20:31:00.000Z-Hey_OckRaz!","replies":[]}}-->

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Hi there. I figured we might be able to resolve this without going to the talk page. The reason I've removed the edit you made from that section is that it's redundant: we make it clear that he opposed it, and, later on in that section, explain why he flipped. The quote doesn't add anything - it amounts to 'this is what the mandate is,' and the mandate is already well described in the article. It doesn't even clearly show him expressing opposition to it. And I've left the sources there because they are good if people want to get into the weeds of it. But given all that it doesn't seem notable enough for inclusion. I realize it was a relatively big issue between him and Clinton but in terms of the PPACA article, it's more notable establishing why the mandate was included in the law the article covers. There are more appropriate pages to deal with Obama's historical health care positions that would seem more appropriate for the level of detail? But that level of detail is too much weight given it's not relevant to the law (as opposed to why he ultimately included it). Again, though, the addition of those great sources seem to cover it, don't you think? =) Sb101 (talk|contribs) 16:17, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-03T16:17:00.000Z","author":"Sb101","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sb101-2013-10-03T16:17:00.000Z-PPACA_-_Healthcare_debate","replies":["c-Sb101-2013-10-03T17:49:00.000Z-Sb101-2013-10-03T16:17:00.000Z"]}}-->

Hey, sorry, I just wanted to let you know that I've seen your message but I don't have time to respond right now - so please forgive my delay (hope to address it tonight). Sb101 (talk|contribs) 17:49, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-03T17:49:00.000Z","author":"Sb101","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Sb101-2013-10-03T17:49:00.000Z-Sb101-2013-10-03T16:17:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Well, I thought it was implicit with the idea that the focus in the campaign on their health plans was a contentious point of difference. But rather than a quote, couldn't we explicitly establish this:

"Clinton's plan would have required all Americans obtain coverage (in effect, an individual mandate), while Obama provided a subsidy but opposed the use of a mandate—a contentious divide in the primary campaign." (With this addition implying both ads and debates on it, given the sources)?

I know there are lots of policy matters on which candidates disagree but that don't become significant public divisions. At the same time, the section starts off with the sentence "Healthcare reform was a major topic of discussion..." and also emphasizes that "attention focused on the plans..." Therefore it seems to me that, in context, that edit would be sufficient clarification, if you're happy with it? Sb101 (talk|contribs) 04:05, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-06T04:05:00.000Z","author":"Sb101","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sb101-2013-10-06T04:05:00.000Z-PPACA_-_Healthcare_debate","replies":[]}}-->

Hi, I'm Sulfurboy. OckRaz, thanks for creating Tinderbox/Neighbour Neighbour!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. .

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, you can leave a comment on my talk page. Or, for more editing help, talk to the volunteers at the Teahouse. Sulfurboy (talk) 04:25, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-06T04:25:00.000Z","author":"Sulfurboy","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sulfurboy-2013-10-06T04:25:00.000Z-Ways_to_improve_Tinderbox\/Neighbour_Neighbour","replies":[]}}-->

Hi, I'm Sulfurboy. OckRaz, thanks for creating Son Of Sam/Bombs Over Broadway!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. .

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, you can leave a comment on my talk page. Or, for more editing help, talk to the volunteers at the Teahouse. Sulfurboy (talk) 04:26, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-06T04:26:00.000Z","author":"Sulfurboy","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sulfurboy-2013-10-06T04:26:00.000Z-Ways_to_improve_Son_Of_Sam\/Bombs_Over_Broadway","replies":[]}}-->

Hi, I'm Sulfurboy. OckRaz, thanks for creating Hungry Ghost (album)!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. ,

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, you can leave a comment on my talk page. Or, for more editing help, talk to the volunteers at the Teahouse. Sulfurboy (talk) 04:28, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-06T04:28:00.000Z","author":"Sulfurboy","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sulfurboy-2013-10-06T04:28:00.000Z-Ways_to_improve_Hungry_Ghost_(album)","replies":[]}}-->

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The article Son Of Sam/Bombs Over Broadway has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Non-notable musical release. No references. No evidence of awards, full length reviews or charting.

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Hi! Re your comment here, you make a compelling argument and I'm leaning toward agreeing with you, but I think you should move it to Talk:PPACA as that's what it's about and then the editors of that page can weigh in. If you wish to make a point about whether the material belongs at Barack Obama, then please put a comment at the bottom of the discussion thread and be sure to add an explanation of why you think the material doesn't belong here (see WP:NOREASON). Thanks! --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:42, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-30T16:42:00.000Z","author":"DrFleischman","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-DrFleischman-2013-10-30T16:42:00.000Z-Individual_mandate","replies":[],"displayName":"Dr. Fleischman"}}-->

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SPECIFICO talk 20:50, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230408205000","author":"SPECIFICO","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-SPECIFICO-20230408205000-Trump_photo_op","replies":["c-OckRaz-20230408205600-SPECIFICO-20230408205000"]}}-->

I am improving the quality of the article.

I would ask that you please stop your vandalism. OckRaz ^talk 20:56, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230408205600","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230408205600-SPECIFICO-20230408205000","replies":[]}}-->

This is your only warning; if you make personal attacks on others again, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Acroterion (talk) 21:00, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230408210000","author":"Acroterion","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Acroterion-20230408210000-April_2023","replies":["c-OckRaz-20230408210300-Acroterion-20230408210000"]}}-->

are you addressing me? what do you believe constitutes an attack? OckRaz ^talk 21:03, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230408210300","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230408210300-Acroterion-20230408210000","replies":["c-Acroterion-20230408210600-OckRaz-20230408210300"]}}-->

I certainly am. Stop calling editors who disagree with you vandals, and get consensus for your edits before trying to edit-war them in. Acroterion (talk) 21:06, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230408210600","author":"Acroterion","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Acroterion-20230408210600-OckRaz-20230408210300","replies":["c-OckRaz-20230408211100-Acroterion-20230408210600","c-OckRaz-20230408211500-Acroterion-20230408210600"]}}-->

i take exception to that. i characterized an edit only after that editor had done the same to me. unless you're handing out warnings accross the board, you are out of line OckRaz ^talk 21:11, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230408211100","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230408211100-Acroterion-20230408210600","replies":[]}}-->

PS: there's no need for consensus when one is merely bringing the lede into agreement with what is in the body of an article's text. frankly, this 'consensus' rigamarole is pretty clearly a way to justify using the introduction to frame an issue. OckRaz ^talk 21:15, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230408211500","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230408211500-Acroterion-20230408210600","replies":["c-Acroterion-20230408212600-OckRaz-20230408211500"]}}-->

I see a warning for disruptive editing just up the page. That's not the same thing as vandalism, which frequently involves the word "poop." Consensus is compulsory, not "rigamarole.". Stop trying to win disagreements with name-calling. Acroterion (talk) 21:26, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230408212600","author":"Acroterion","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Acroterion-20230408212600-OckRaz-20230408211500","replies":["c-OckRaz-20230408213100-Acroterion-20230408212600","c-OckRaz-20230408215600-Acroterion-20230408212600"]}}-->

so, you're saying i could have said he was a disruptor, just not a vandal? OckRaz ^talk 21:31, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230408213100","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230408213100-Acroterion-20230408212600","replies":["c-Acroterion-20230408213600-OckRaz-20230408213100"]}}-->

Edit-warring against consensus is generally seen as disruptive, so I think that's a fair assessment of your present conduct. Describing other editors as vandals implies that their contributions are not in good faith or are intentionally damaging. That is certainly not the case with SPECIFICO, nor with you. You are clearly editing in an attempt to better the encyclopedia too, but you are trying to bypass consensus and are calling other editors names. That's disruptive. Acroterion (talk) 21:36, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230408213600","author":"Acroterion","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Acroterion-20230408213600-OckRaz-20230408213100","replies":[]}}-->

i do not agree with your use of the term name calling.

characterization of edits is fair game, and that is what i did, not call someone a name. i probably did use the wrong term in how i characterized. i'd not thought of vandalism in terms of four letter words or being scatological. i'll acknowledge making a mistake about the categories of unhelpful edits. i should have said specifico was engaged in disruptive editing.

i have not engaged in name calling, and i will thank you to stop falsely (and repeatedly) saying that i have. OckRaz ^talk 21:56, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230408215600","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230408215600-Acroterion-20230408212600","replies":[]}}-->

OckRaz, you are welcome to make a case on the article talk page, where three editors disagree with you--and provided evidence for their claims. Please stop this pestering Acroterion on their talk page--you were warned about making personal attacks, so making more of them is probably not helpful. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 02:07, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230409020700","author":"Drmies","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Drmies-20230409020700-April_2023","replies":["c-OckRaz-20230409033000-Drmies-20230409020700"]}}-->

this isn't a dispute about evidence.

it's a dispute about who has a burden of proof. OckRaz ^talk 03:30, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230409033000","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230409033000-Drmies-20230409020700","replies":[]}}-->

You have been blocked from editing from certain pages (User talk:Acroterion) for a period of 1 week for harassment. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions.

If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.  Drmies (talk) 13:46, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230409134600","author":"Drmies","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Drmies-20230409134600-April_2023","replies":[]}}-->

The following topic ban now applies to you:

You have been topic banned for two months from all pages and discussions concerning post-1992 American politics and related people.

You have been sanctioned for article editing and talkpage manner that are disruptive and characterized by a battleground approach. For instance, attempting to edit war this ridiculous prose into an article, or a response such as this to an opponent's argument, has nothing to do with collaborating to improve an article, or with civil discussion. Nor does this combative post where you characterize one post on your talkpage as "pestering" (obviously in retaliation for having yourself been asked to "stop pestering" a user). These are only a few examples of a larger corpus.

This topic ban is imposed in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator under the authority of the Arbitration Committee's decision at #Final decision and, if applicable, the contentious topics procedure. This sanction has been recorded in the log of sanctions. Please read WP:TBAN to understand what a topic ban is. If you do not comply with the topic ban, you may be blocked for an extended period to enforce the ban.

If you wish to appeal the ban, please read the appeals process. You are free to contact me on my talk page if anything of the above is unclear to you. Bishonen | tålk 20:05, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230409200500","author":"Bishonen","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Bishonen-20230409200500-Notice_that_you_are_now_subject_to_an_arbitration_enforcement_topic_ban","replies":[]}}-->

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 31 hours for making personal attacks towards other editors. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions.

If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.  Orange Mike | Talk 03:56, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230410035600","author":"Orangemike","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Orangemike-20230410035600-April_2023_2","replies":[],"displayName":"Orange Mike"}}-->

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

OckRaz (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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Request reason:

it's ridiculous to pretend that because someone says a thing one doesn't like to hear, that this is an attack OckRaz ^talk 04:02, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230410040200","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230410040200-April_2023_2","replies":[]}}-->

Decline reason:

If you don't care about being unblocked, don't make an unblock request. You were't blocked for saying something people didn't want to hear, you were blocked for harassment of another user. If you have grievances about how rules were applied, you may take them to WP:ANI once the block expires. I would advise you against doing so based on your recent edit history, but it's up to you. 331dot (talk) 07:25, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230410072500","author":"331dot","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-331dot-20230410072500-April_2023_2","replies":[]}}-->

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If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

PS: To whomever it may concern, I don't actually care about getting unblocked. I just assumed that putting the comment into an unblock request would make it more likely that someone would actually see that I'm calling them out for their absurd application of rules. Leave up the block, unblock me, or extend it - IDGAF OckRaz ^talk 04:24, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230410042400","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230410042400-April_2023_2","replies":["c-Bishonen-20230410101700-OckRaz-20230410042400","c-331dot-20230708232900-OckRaz-20230410042400","c-HouseBlaster-20230708235200-OckRaz-20230410042400"]}}-->

• Orangemike and 331dot, I'll leave it to uninvolved admins, but I don't for my part think this on my page was much in the way of attacks or harassment. Venting on the occasion of a sanction is pretty normal. Bishonen | tålk 10:17, 10 April 2023 (UTC).[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230410101700","author":"Bishonen","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Bishonen-20230410101700-OckRaz-20230410042400","replies":["c-331dot-20230410104100-Bishonen-20230410101700","c-OckRaz-20230410182100-Bishonen-20230410101700"]}}-->

  I declined it more because they say they don't care, but I was looking at their posts to Acroterion. 331dot (talk) 10:41, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230410104100","author":"331dot","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-331dot-20230410104100-Bishonen-20230410101700","replies":["c-OckRaz-20230410164500-331dot-20230410104100","c-OckRaz-20230410165100-331dot-20230410104100"]}}-->

  "weren't blocked for saying something people didn't want to hear, you were blocked for harassment of another user" - the claim was that i was blocked because i attacked an editor. what did i do that allegedly constitutes an attack? well, this link defines the offense, but that just makes clear that what was deemed an attack was merely saying things people didn't want to hear.

  "If you don't care about being unblocked, don't make an unblock request" - are you saying that to me in your official capacity? i don't see how my caring about things or not caring about them could possibly be within your purview. OckRaz ^talk 16:45, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230410164500","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230410164500-331dot-20230410104100","replies":[]}}-->

  "I declined it more because they say they don't care" - Are you actually saying that you don't evaluate claims based on the merits, but based upon people's feelings? OckRaz ^talk 16:51, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230410165100","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230410165100-331dot-20230410104100","replies":[]}}-->

  Bishonen Well, thank you for that at least.

  I think that "venting" is a very fair description, whereas one would need either to misapply a reasonable standard or else employ an unreasonable standard to call it an a "attack." I'm not sure what to make of the fact that the prior instance of what I would also call venting, you referred to as "retaliation" - which at least implies an attack.

  From my perspective, this whole thing has had one unifying theme: it's all been about the questioning of standards. Initially, it was about a standard for when a wikipedia article can portray a claim as a lie. The status quo for what editors can do in the article seems egregiously low when compared with the much higher standard for how editors are supposed to refer to each others' honesty. I find it bizarre, and really an inversion of what the priorities should be if you're writing something that aspires to be a reference work everyone will trust.

  The other standards have been about either what sort of characterizations count as attacks or about whether arguing counts as harassment - or if you prefer as "pestering." In principle, I think it's fine that I was blocked from Acroterion's talk page, but that's because user talk pages function like one's home, and by continuing to argue, I exhausted Acroterion's patience. So he should have been well within his rights to not continue to have me as a guest. I don't think it should have required any sort of adjudication.

  In practice I think it's wrong to justify my not being welcome in his house (because I grew tiresome) by saying I needed to be punished (because I committed a rule violation. To then extend the punishment (which is actually for an unwritten rule about annoying people) to losing editing privileges in the encyclopedia itself really is a dubious use of standards. Finally, for 331dot to just come right out and say that his application of standards will be different based on whether or not I respect those standards and/or the way in which they're applied has just made me feel much more confident that they don't deserve respect. OckRaz ^talk 18:21, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230410182100","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230410182100-Bishonen-20230410101700","replies":["c-Doug_Weller-20230413191400-OckRaz-20230410182100"]}}-->

  WP:TLDR and you are doubling down on personal attacks. Doug Weller talk 19:14, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230413191400","author":"Doug Weller","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Doug_Weller-20230413191400-OckRaz-20230410182100","replies":["c-OckRaz-20230708081900-Doug_Weller-20230413191400"]}}-->

  what was the point of your adding that comment? OckRaz ^talk 08:19, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230708081900","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230708081900-Doug_Weller-20230413191400","replies":["c-Doug_Weller-20230708082800-OckRaz-20230708081900"]}}-->

  The reason should be obvious. Too long, and another attack on User:331dot. I'm concerned that you can't recognise that. Doug Weller talk 08:28, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230708082800","author":"Doug Weller","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Doug_Weller-20230708082800-OckRaz-20230708081900","replies":["c-OckRaz-20230708084300-Doug_Weller-20230708082800"]}}-->

  were you involved somehow, or just commenting because you wanted to add your opinion? do you have some status that makes your opinion special? also, i find it curious that people seem to characterize criticism as attacks. why should i not point out that 331 seemed to be using irrelevant criteria rather than applying rules in an objective manner? OckRaz ^talk 08:43, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230708084300","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230708084300-Doug_Weller-20230708082800","replies":["c-331dot-20230708085600-OckRaz-20230708084300"]}}-->

  I haven't been following this discussion. It's not a matter of your feelings, just logic- if you don't care about being unblocked, you shouldn't request it. Save your own time. You can feel however you wish to feel about it. I said it simply as a person, "official capacity" is not relevant. 331dot (talk) 08:56, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230708085600","author":"331dot","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-331dot-20230708085600-OckRaz-20230708084300","replies":["c-OckRaz-20230708090200-331dot-20230708085600"]}}-->

  you're not using the word logic correctly. in rules based systems where one is evaluating behavior, the feelings of a person when they request that evaluation is what is irrelevant, not the status of the person tasked with performing the evaluation. OckRaz ^talk 09:02, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230708090200","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230708090200-331dot-20230708085600","replies":["c-331dot-20230708092700-OckRaz-20230708090200"]}}-->

  I don't think that it is unreasonable for someone to have some skin in the game and actually care about what it is they are asking about. I also take not caring to mean that you had no contributions you wanted to make- since blocks only prevent editing, if you have no contributions to make, there is no need to unblock you. If you feel I have grossly erred here about this now expired 31 hour block, haul me into WP:ANI. 331dot (talk) 09:27, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230708092700","author":"331dot","type":"comment","level":10,"id":"c-331dot-20230708092700-OckRaz-20230708090200","replies":["c-OckRaz-20230708101600-331dot-20230708092700"]}}-->

  What I feel is that you have a fundamentally flawed view of the proper way to exercise your authority. I've no intention of hauling you anywhere because my takeaway from the entire experience was that wikipedia itself has been corrupted. I just logged on for the first time in 3 months and answered a message I found waiting for me From Doug Weller. I'm not even sure why you're talking to me given that I didn't message you. OckRaz ^talk 10:16, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230708101600","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":11,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230708101600-331dot-20230708092700","replies":["c-331dot-20230708101800-OckRaz-20230708101600","c-331dot-20230708101900-OckRaz-20230708101600"]}}-->

  Doug Weller linked to my username which sends a notification. 331dot (talk) 10:18, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230708101800","author":"331dot","type":"comment","level":12,"id":"c-331dot-20230708101800-OckRaz-20230708101600","replies":["c-OckRaz-20230708103400-331dot-20230708101800"]}}-->

  Oh, okay. I noticed that there was a link in the response, but I didn't know what it was for. OckRaz ^talk 10:34, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230708103400","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":13,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230708103400-331dot-20230708101800","replies":[]}}-->

  I don't have any "authority", just some tools. Again I'm not sure what is unreasonable with thinking that you should have some desire to want to be unblocked and contribute. If you don't care, why should I? 331dot (talk) 10:19, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230708101900","author":"331dot","type":"comment","level":12,"id":"c-331dot-20230708101900-OckRaz-20230708101600","replies":["c-OckRaz-20230708103500-331dot-20230708101900"]}}-->

  I'm not sure how having a tool that empowers you to affect what others are able to do is different from having authority, but that's not important. I think that the quickest way to make my point on the other matter is with an analogy:

  Imagine that a man has been arrested and charged with a minor crime for which he will likely be held in jail over the weekend since he can't pay the fine. He's taken before a magistrate who will decide whether or not to find him guilty. Suppose that the accused appears distressed and says he doesn't care about the outcome of the hearing. Perhaps he's homeless and doesn't mind being in jail for a while.

  Would it be appropriate for the magistrate to decide on that basis that he will declare the accused to be guilty as charged? There are multiple reasons why I think that would be inappropriate. OckRaz ^talk 10:35, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230708103500","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":13,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230708103500-331dot-20230708101900","replies":["c-331dot-20230708111900-OckRaz-20230708103500"]}}-->

  This was not a judicial proceeding(and in most jurisdictions I am aware of if the accused does not offer a defense they are usually convicted, not found not guilty). This is a project to write an encyclopedia. If a user is not concerned with their ability to contribute towards that project, be it in general or just for the block duration, I see no need to take action. I'm a volunteer, I'm not going to volunteer my time for those who don't particularly care about participating here. This isn't a judicial proceeding where things like a criminal record play into it.

  It doesn't make sense to me to be concerned about the application of policies/rules if you aren't concerned with the project itself. You were free to make another unblock request for someone else to review, and possobly someone with a different philosophy might have come along and agreed with you(though the short nature of that block reduces that chance). 331dot (talk) 11:19, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230708111900","author":"331dot","type":"comment","level":14,"id":"c-331dot-20230708111900-OckRaz-20230708103500","replies":["c-OckRaz-20230708194100-331dot-20230708111900"]}}-->

  I expect that my perspective does not make sense to you, but nor does yours to me.

  
  

  I'm really not eager to argue at length about a block. Again, I didn't send a message to you. I was responding to a comment I found from someone else and asking what made my comment allegedly a "personal attack" (as opposed to a criticism of your decision), and why it was that this person was weighing in on the matter in the first place.

  
  

  I will add a couple of things more, though. Saying you don't care if you're penalized is very different from not offering a defense, and both the analogy and the actual situation dealt only with the former and not the latter. Also, you're obviously correct that we're talking about writing a reference work and not a literal judicial proceeding, but that observation doesn't invalidate my analogy. As you've suggested, there's a philosophical difference underlying what we think the proper framing is for the situation.

  
  

  Honestly, I think that "philosophical differences" about how to contextualize disagreements would be a good description of what I think has led to a kind of corruption in the website. Although I haven't been logged on in the last three months, I did speak to people about their opinions of wikipedia during that time. A number of them said they had become frustrated and given up on editing. OckRaz ^talk 19:41, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230708194100","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":15,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230708194100-331dot-20230708111900","replies":["c-331dot-20230708200100-OckRaz-20230708194100"]}}-->

  Well, that's their choice to do. They can either do that or stay and work to change the system to how they feel it should be. I'm guessing they don't want to volunteer their time to do that- which is fine. I'm a volunteer, too. If there is a rule that says I cannot do what it is that I did, please point it out. I don't think there's one, but I don't have every rule here committed to memory. I could be wrong.

  If you or anyone wants to impose a certain philosophy on me/admins in general, there are forums to discuss that. Again, if you feel I have grossly erred here, please open a discussion so I can be chastised. I can take it and change. Saying we're "corrupt" is a misapplication of the word; too often it's used to mean "I disagree with what happens here and I don't think I can change it"(the latter part is not true, you can change it, but it takes work and time, which is in short supply for us all as volunteers). If people are frustrated, I want to hear what that is and see if it can be alleviated or explained. Perhaps it can't be, but this place has gotten by for many years with hundreds of thousands of editors okay for the most part because we figure out how to get along. This place isn't really that hard. There is nothing wrong with you thinking different than I or I from you, but it's not "corruption". It's just different. I'm sorry to use your time, I don't intend to bother you further. I hope you have a good day. 331dot (talk) 20:01, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230708200100","author":"331dot","type":"comment","level":16,"id":"c-331dot-20230708200100-OckRaz-20230708194100","replies":["c-OckRaz-20230708223200-331dot-20230708200100"]}}-->

  re: "If you or anyone wants to impose a certain philosophy on me/admins in general, there are forums to discuss that." - I wasn't aware of that.

  
  Where would I find them?

  
  

  re: "Saying we're "corrupt" is a misapplication of the word... it's not "corruption". It's just different." - I don't think it's that simple.
  

  
  I would suggest that there's a relationship between how we judge what is corruption and how we think about racism. For example, suppose a more liberal person tells a more conservative person that he is taking part in racist behavior. The latter would likely bridle at the idea, thinking that this is an indictment of his personal choices and his character. However, if the former was thinking about participation in systemic racism, then there's a mismatch between what the two of them are thinking and saying to each other.

  
  

  Similarly, I'm not using the term "corruption" to refer to deliberate individual acts of dishonesty, but to systemic corruption which is a product of things like misaligned incentives and inconsistent application of vague directives. I'm not talking about conspiracies but about people with shared biases independently acting in a way that has the same corrosive effect as coordination would. You may not like that characterization any better, but I suspect it's different from what you had previously believed my claim to be.

  
  

  I hope you have a good day too. OckRaz ^talk 22:32, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230708223200","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":17,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230708223200-331dot-20230708200100","replies":[]}}-->

• The Village Pump is probably the best place to discuss an idea and formulate/offer a proposal.
  I kinda think this has been blown out of proportion and I've probably helped, for which I'm sorry. If you had just said "I made a mistake and I won't do it again" I would likely have ended such a short block. By saying you didn't care, you misused the unblock request template which is for requesting to be unblocked. There are ways to communicate something without requesting unblock if you have no interest in being unblocked. I do evaluate claims on the merits- when that is what is requested. By your own admission you weren't and said you didn't give a f. Anyway, I really have said too much. I will not bother you further. 331dot (talk) 23:29, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230708232900","author":"331dot","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-331dot-20230708232900-OckRaz-20230410042400","replies":["c-OckRaz-20230710073200-331dot-20230708232900"]}}-->

  "you misused the unblock request template" - I find that interesting. Such an interpretation hadn't even occurred to me.

  
  

  I take it that your interpretation of my saying that I didn't care was that I had no preference as to whether or not I remained blocked. That wasn't what I meant. I legitimately wanted the block removed, to some degree because I didn't want to lose the ability to make edits. Even more, though, it was because I felt it would leave a black mark on my record that could follow me and have some unknown negative impacts in the future.

  
  

  What I was expressing by saying that I didn't care wasn't indifference to the penalty. I was angry and expressing contempt for the overall process. I don't want to rehash it all now, but my perspective was that there were at least three rules/principles that are supposed to be observed universally (without needing to get consensus support), but they were being ignored. My arguing on talk pages that consensus was not necessary was deemed to be disruption that deserved punishment.

  
  

  Anyway, my point is just that I thought it was absurd. I didn't care about the judgment that would be made regarding the equivalent of an appeal to a guilty verdict because I thought that the underlying charge was ridiculous. So, I had a real desire to not get the penalty, but I was saying that I didn't care about (or have any regard for) what I regarded as an absurd process.

  
  

  If I had actually been saying I was as happy being blocked as not - then I would see your point. I think I agree with you that in those circumstances it would actually be a misuse of the unblock request. OckRaz ^talk 07:32, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230710073200","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230710073200-331dot-20230708232900","replies":[]}}-->

• Hello. A couple things. One, I would really appreciate it if you could take a moment to change your signature to [[User:OckRaz|<b style="color:Purple;">Ock</b><b style="color:Black;">''Raz''</b>]] <sup>[[User talk:OckRaz|<b style="color:Green;">talk</b>]]</sup>. It will look the exact same, but will not create WP:LINT errors that other people have to clean up after.
  Two, I am going to offer you an unsolicited view on the above exchange. I am a fellow non-admin, which allows my approach to analysis to be entirely philosophical. The sole reason we block people is to prevent further disruption. Let's say that Bob was adding copyrighted materials to Wikipedia, and is subsequently blocked to stop further copyvios. Bob cares about being blocked; he really wants to be unblocked. If Bob is unblocked, he is unlikely to add more copyvios lest he be blocked again. Because Bob would stop adding copyvio on his own, he no longer needs to be forced to stop by way of a block. Thus, it no longer serves a preventative purpose and the block can be lifted.
  A corollary of this principle – that blocked people who truly want to be unblocked are unlikely to repeat said behaviour – is that people who do not care about what happens to their appeal are more likely to repeat the blockable behaviour, and thus likely need to stay blocked to prevent further disruption. I see why 331dot declined your unblock request: he was not convinced that the alleged personal attacks would stop if unblocked. (Note that I have not looked into any of the background besides this thread, so I am not saying that you did personally attack someone, nor am I saying that you did not. In any event, your appeal contained no evidence that you merely said "a thing one doesn't like to hear", so it likely would be declined on the merits, too.) Wishing you all the best, HouseBlaster^talk 23:52, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230708235200","author":"HouseBlaster","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-HouseBlaster-20230708235200-OckRaz-20230410042400","replies":["c-OckRaz-20230710065500-HouseBlaster-20230708235200","c-OckRaz-20230710074600-HouseBlaster-20230708235200"],"displayName":"House"}}-->

  1) I think that is what my signature is currently. I don't see a difference.

  2) I understand your argument to be that a person expressing a desire to be unblocked is more likely to cease to commit an offense that caused him to receive a block.

  
  

  However, my position was that I hadn't committed an actual transgression, but I would file a formal protest to get it reversed even though I had no confidence that my appeal would get a fair hearing. My saying that I didn't care was to express contempt for the process and that I didn't care about (or value) the judgment that the process would produce - not that I was indifferent to being blocked or not. I very much disliked the idea of getting blocked. OckRaz ^talk 06:55, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230710065500","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230710065500-HouseBlaster-20230708235200","replies":[]}}-->

  oh - maybe i do see a difference.

  is it about one way having a bunch of single quote marks in it: '''''

  is that what makes "lint?" OckRaz ^talk 07:46, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230710074600","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230710074600-HouseBlaster-20230708235200","replies":["c-HouseBlaster-20230710223700-OckRaz-20230710074600"]}}-->

  The new signature looks identical, on purpose. The issue with lint is not the "what", but the "how". The key difference is that the new one does not have any <font>...</font> tags. Font tags have been obsolete since 2014, meaning that browsers, parsers, etc., will eventually stop recognizing them properly.

  I understand your perspective, too. HouseBlaster^talk 22:37, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230710223700","author":"HouseBlaster","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-HouseBlaster-20230710223700-OckRaz-20230710074600","replies":["c-OckRaz-20230714135300-HouseBlaster-20230710223700"],"displayName":"House"}}-->

  Okay, I believe I've made the change you requested. OckRaz ^talk 13:53, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230714135300","author":"OckRaz","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-OckRaz-20230714135300-HouseBlaster-20230710223700","replies":[]}}-->

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