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German TETRA Operators according to Bundesnetzagentur

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Hi Drahtlos,

I´m trying to add the recent TETRA operators according to official documents by the Bundesnetzagentur. But you revert my changes again. I´m wondering why?

Best Regards, Roman

Just seen your comment: Tetra MNCs do not follow ITU E.212 and overlap with E.212 MNCs (e.g. 260-08 Telefonica O2, 260-0008 Infraleuna

But there are other references and TETRA usages listed in the listing too. I also noticed the inconsistencies between Bundesnetzagentur and ITU E.212. My approach would have been to add only those operators, which do not contradict ITU E.212. Or do you have any other suggestion on how to get this properly listed on wikipedia? Dedicated TETRA list with the look and feel of your curated ITU lists? Appreciate your feedback in advance on this!

BR \R

@91.59.231.91: This might be a bit confusing. For 3GPP networks (GSM, UMTS, LTE, 5G) the Mobile Country Code and the Mobile Network Code are defined in ITU standard E.212. The network code usually consists of 2 or 3 decimal digits. TETRA networks use the mobile country code from ITU-T Recommendation E.212 together with a 10-bit binary mobile network code. However, to allow roaming for multi-mode devices, a TETRA network may be assigned an E.212 network code as well. The point is that TETRA networks have their own range of network codes which is completely separate from the E.212 codes. The "Mobile network codes in ITU region ..." pages list E.212 network codes. TETRA networks are listed only, if they have been assigned an E.212 MNC. In other words, it is not an inconsistency, it is a separate numbering space. See also Mobile country code#Overview. Drahtlos (talk) 15:16, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240125151600","author":"Drahtlos","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Drahtlos-20240125151600-German_TETRA_Operators_according_to_Bundesnetzagentur","replies":["c-Drahtlos-20240125154400-Drahtlos-20240125151600","c-Maedula-20240125155100-Drahtlos-20240125151600"]}}-->

Another example: A multimode TETRA and GSM/LTE/5G device from BDBOS would use the E.212 MCC-MNC 260-70 or 260-76 when connected to a GSM/LTE/5G public network and one of the TETRA MCC-MNCs 260-1000 through 260-1100 when connected to the BDBOS TETRA network. It looks like the TETRA MNC range has been extended beyond 10 bits meanwhile. One would have to dig through the ETSI specs for TETRA to figure out what the current limit is. Drahtlos (talk) 15:44, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240125154400","author":"Drahtlos","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Drahtlos-20240125154400-Drahtlos-20240125151600","replies":["c-Maedula-20240125162600-Drahtlos-20240125154400"]}}-->

@Drahtlos I guess for TETRA document ETSI TR 102 300-5 chapter "8.2 Relating TETRA Mobile Network Codes to E.212 Mobile Network Codes" is of relevance here. It says:

"This clause specifies the relationship associated with the management of the (T)MNC resource.

NOTE 1: No such relationship is required for (T)MCC and E.212 [5] MCC because they are already aligned, and

no other option is permitted

Recognizing that the (T)MNC can be up to 4 digits, and that E.212 [5] can be either 2 or 3 digit, ... etc."

So it is more about the represented digits than the actual over-the-air bit length. And yes. The (T)MNC differs from MNC.

Still I would love to get this documented in wiki. Appreciate any suggestion (see also my previous comment). Maedula (talk) 16:26, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240125162600","author":"Maedula","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Maedula-20240125162600-Drahtlos-20240125154400","replies":[]}}-->

Appreciate your swift feedback. So I will revert my latest changes. But if I would appreciate to get this documented on wikipedia aligned with your work and documentation here with all its cross-reference possibilities. What do you suggest to do? I understand I must not list them here. Can I create a dedicated page aligned to layout to get this documented as "TETRA Mobile network codes in ITU MCC region 2xx"? I appreciate your opinion and guidance here... Maedula (talk) 15:51, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240125155100","author":"Maedula","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Maedula-20240125155100-Drahtlos-20240125151600","replies":[]}}-->

@Maedula: You could start the article "TETRA Mobile network codes in ITU MCC region 2xx" and link it to TETRA. The problem is that most TETRA networks are private or run by somewhat secretive security services. The is no global authority (that I am aware of) that publishes a global TETRA MNC list similar to ITU for E.212. Some TETRA lists that I have come across:

Finland: [1]
Sweden: [2]
a list someone compiled 5 years ago: [3] - disregard Poland, this is obviously the E.212 list from UKE

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@Drahtlos thanks a lot for your guidance. Next time slot I will start the article as you have suggested. Let´s see if besides me somebody help to fill that article with life as you outline due to the secretive context of some to most TETRA services. Maedula (talk) 08:13, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240130081300","author":"Maedula","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Maedula-20240130081300-Drahtlos-20240125165300","replies":["c-Drahtlos-20240201180300-Maedula-20240130081300"]}}-->

@Maedula: I have found the Austrian T-MNC list (at the end of the document). Drahtlos (talk) 18:03, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240201180300","author":"Drahtlos","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Drahtlos-20240201180300-Maedula-20240130081300","replies":["c-Maedula-20240208104600-Drahtlos-20240201180300","c-Maedula-20240208130500-Drahtlos-20240201180300"]}}-->

@Drahtlos Check out: Draft:TETRA Mobile network codes in ITU MCC region 2xx (Europe)

I submitted this page for review. Any feedback on this is welcome. I have started with Germany and will add now your additional references step by step. Maedula (talk) 10:46, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240208104600","author":"Maedula","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Maedula-20240208104600-Drahtlos-20240201180300","replies":[]}}-->

I have added Sweden, Finland and Austria now. I have reviewed the entries in the github link you mentioned above. Without any proper references, I have decided against added references for this into this site for now. Tough part will be indeed to decide on how to grow the page with meaningful official references Maedula (talk) 13:05, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240208130500","author":"Maedula","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Maedula-20240208130500-Drahtlos-20240201180300","replies":["c-Drahtlos-20240208135900-Maedula-20240208130500"]}}-->

Agreed, the Github page is at best a starting point for further searches and not a reliable source in itself. I like the article. I don't know how the review process works to get it from draft to an actual article. Drahtlos (talk) 13:59, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240208135900","author":"Drahtlos","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Drahtlos-20240208135900-Maedula-20240208130500","replies":["c-Maedula-20240214095400-Drahtlos-20240208135900","c-Maedula-20240221090200-Drahtlos-20240208135900"]}}-->

@Drahtlos appreciate your support for the review process of the TETRA page. I hope with your comment we manage to convince the reviewer Maedula (talk) 09:54, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240214095400","author":"Maedula","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Maedula-20240214095400-Drahtlos-20240208135900","replies":[]}}-->

@Drahtlos do you have any clue what Stuartyeates means by saying " I'm seeing zero in depth coverage in secondary sources"? I understand referencing the offical public accessible documents by the regional regulatories is not sufficent and additional references are necessary?! Maedula (talk) 09:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240221090200","author":"Maedula","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Maedula-20240221090200-Drahtlos-20240208135900","replies":["c-Maedula-20240224090800-Maedula-20240221090200"]}}-->

He just replied to me saying: "As a tertiary source, wikipedia must remain silent on subjects without secondary sources. Without this, we're not an encyclopedia.". That´s a little unfair in my honest opinion and double standards. Do you have any good suggestion on how get hold of second sources for TETRA MNC assignments? Referencing to [4] maybe? Maedula (talk) 09:08, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240224090800","author":"Maedula","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Maedula-20240224090800-Maedula-20240221090200","replies":[]}}-->

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GSA - LTE Report

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Hi Drahtlos,

Thanks for your recent edits and updating the deployment lists. On the GSA website an additional problem has come up: "User registration is currently not allowed." This is one of the problems with non-public accessible sources I feared. Can you temporarily upload the file somewhere (Dropbox, etc.) so that at least I can download it? I'd like to review it. Thanks in advance. Nightwalker-87 (talk) 10:37, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-09-17T10:37:00.000Z","author":"Nightwalker-87","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Nightwalker-87-2016-09-17T10:37:00.000Z-GSA_-_LTE_Report","replies":["c-Nightwalker-87-2016-09-17T10:50:00.000Z-Nightwalker-87-2016-09-17T10:37:00.000Z"]}}-->

I managed it somehow (workaround) ... Nightwalker-87 (talk) 10:50, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-09-17T10:50:00.000Z","author":"Nightwalker-87","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Nightwalker-87-2016-09-17T10:50:00.000Z-Nightwalker-87-2016-09-17T10:37:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

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List of UMTS networks

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Hi there. I've just started to improve List of UMTS networks by introducing a new table formatting and would be happy to have some help with this as there are already many entries in the list, compared to when I started introducing a new formatting for the LTE network list. Even that seemed to have taken ages when I look back at it, but I believe it was a good thing to do (there was no complaining for quite many months, which is actually a good sign on wikipedia... :-D).
Would you be interested in helping me here? If this it not what you see yourself in - do you know anybody else who might be interested? Please give me a short feedback. Thanks. :-) Nightwalker-87 (talk) 23:17, 18 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-12-18T23:17:00.000Z","author":"Nightwalker-87","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Nightwalker-87-2016-12-18T23:17:00.000Z-List_of_UMTS_networks","replies":[]}}-->

In principle I am interested but I can't promise when I'll get around to it... Drahtlos (talk) 17:15, 19 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-12-19T17:15:00.000Z","author":"Drahtlos","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Drahtlos-2016-12-19T17:15:00.000Z-List_of_UMTS_networks","replies":[]}}-->

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Bug Tussel LTE

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Not sure if you get a notification if I post a reply on my page so I'm replying here.

Here is a confirmation. They use band 4 as shown in the post but they also leased band 12 spectrum from AT&T so it's another band they are either already using or will use soon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sbsail (talk • contribs) 22:22, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-04-20T22:22:00.000Z","author":"Sbsail","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sbsail-2017-04-20T22:22:00.000Z-Bug_Tussel_LTE","replies":["c-Drahtlos-2017-04-21T14:52:00.000Z-Sbsail-2017-04-20T22:22:00.000Z"]}}-->

@Sbsail: Thanks for the link. Band 12 is perhaps used for their Fixed Wireless Broadband service - if we could only find a reference for that. Drahtlos (talk) 14:52, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-04-21T14:52:00.000Z","author":"Drahtlos","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Drahtlos-2017-04-21T14:52:00.000Z-Sbsail-2017-04-20T22:22:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

@Drahtlos: I doubt band 12 is for fixed wireless. It's too narrow for broadband. Its capacity is comparable to existing satellite networks. 2.5 and 3.5 GHz bands are more suitable for fixed wireless. One company in rural Michigan tried to use band 12 for fixed wireless, they went bankrupt in a few years.

@Sbsail: Hm, FCC says that they have 54 towers at 3.65 GHz - 3.70 GHz. Only the FCC listing does not say if it is used for WiMAX or LTE.

@Drahtlos: The first location I clicked says it's WiMax.

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Barnstar

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		The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
		Thanks for your mountain of edits to the List of 7400-series integrated circuits article! • Sbmeirow • Talk • 11:11, 3 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2018-11-03T11:11:00.000Z","author":"Sbmeirow","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sbmeirow-2018-11-03T11:11:00.000Z-Barnstar","replies":[]}}-->

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Transistor Packages

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Thanks for improving transistor package articles!! If you come across any historical information, such as the year a package was introduced, please add it to an article. You added Fairchild info to the TO-5 article, but I don't see a year listed in the article. This type of information is kind of hard to find, so if/when you come across it, please add it. Thanks in advance. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 22:44, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-07-16T22:44:00.000Z","author":"Sbmeirow","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sbmeirow-2021-07-16T22:44:00.000Z-Transistor_Packages","replies":["c-Drahtlos-2021-07-17T14:04:00.000Z-Sbmeirow-2021-07-16T22:44:00.000Z"]}}-->

Agreed, historical information is hard to find... I am adding it when I can find it. Drahtlos (talk) 14:04, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-07-17T14:04:00.000Z","author":"Drahtlos","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Drahtlos-2021-07-17T14:04:00.000Z-Sbmeirow-2021-07-16T22:44:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

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Limitless Mobile

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@Drahtlos - Limitless Mobile has GSM1900 in PA, Limitless Mobile has never had spectrum in Kansas. There are plans to re-farm the GSM to LTE including VoLTE and to launch limited 5G SA services. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eofltd (talk • contribs) 13:59, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-10-21T13:59:00.000Z","author":"Eofltd","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Eofltd-2021-10-21T13:59:00.000Z-Limitless_Mobile","replies":["c-Drahtlos-2021-10-21T14:01:00.000Z-Eofltd-2021-10-21T13:59:00.000Z"]}}-->

@Eofltd: Thanks! Drahtlos (talk) 14:01, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-10-21T14:01:00.000Z","author":"Drahtlos","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Drahtlos-2021-10-21T14:01:00.000Z-Eofltd-2021-10-21T13:59:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

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7400-series_integrated_circuits#Families

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I grouped the bipolar 7400 families together at the top of the first table at 7400-series_integrated_circuits#Families, then added a dark seperator row. I feel it makes more sense to keep these old school families group together. If you don't like it, let's discuss it. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 06:04, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230303060400","author":"Sbmeirow","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sbmeirow-20230303060400-7400-series_integrated_circuits#Families","replies":["c-Drahtlos-20230303133000-Sbmeirow-20230303060400"]}}-->

I was thinking along the same lines. Drahtlos (talk) 13:30, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230303133000","author":"Drahtlos","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Drahtlos-20230303133000-Sbmeirow-20230303060400","replies":[]}}-->

I changed the colorized rows in the table to black, then added a new group for 5V CMOS logic. The "T" suffix families in the bottom CMOS group still need to split out and migrated into the 5V CMOS logic group. I hope this regrouping is ok with you. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 22:16, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230305221600","author":"Sbmeirow","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sbmeirow-20230305221600-7400-series_integrated_circuits#Families","replies":["c-Drahtlos-20230308003800-Sbmeirow-20230305221600"]}}-->

Sure, no problem. I was going to think about the grouping once I have updated all the families. That's going to take a while, though, so don't hold your breath... Drahtlos (talk) 00:38, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230308003800","author":"Drahtlos","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Drahtlos-20230308003800-Sbmeirow-20230305221600","replies":[]}}-->

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ITU E.212 compliant MNC for France

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@Drahtlos have you seen the entries in the table for France (e.g. 208 50144). 50144 does not look like a valid MNC. ITU E212 MNC is either 2 or 3 digits. That has 5 digits. TETRA?! Maedula (talk) 15:14, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240223151400","author":"Maedula","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Maedula-20240223151400-ITU_E.212_compliant_MNC_for_France","replies":["c-Drahtlos-20240223223900-Maedula-20240223151400"]}}-->

MNCs with more than three digits are assigned in some countries for private 4G and 5G networks. The roaming signalling between networks usually handles only up to three digits, so devices with longer MNCs as part of their IMSI are not able to roam. Most countries don't publish such private MNCs. Exceptions are France, Poland, and the CBRS assignments in the US (CBRS assignments). Drahtlos (talk) 22:39, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240223223900","author":"Drahtlos","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Drahtlos-20240223223900-Maedula-20240223151400","replies":[]}}-->

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Identity of card in XGA photo

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Please see Talk:Extended Graphics Array#Dubious for a discussion about whether the photo labeled XGA is actually an XGA-2. Thanks. —DIYeditor (talk) 14:39, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240404143900","author":"DIYeditor","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-DIYeditor-20240404143900-Identity_of_card_in_XGA_photo","replies":[],"displayName":"\u2014DIYeditor"}}-->

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ArbCom 2024 Elections voter message

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