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Hi there folks, just a quick enquiry as to whether or not anyone's actually using Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spaceflight/Space stations working group? If we're still planning on running it as intended, can I suggest people pay a bit more attention to it, or, if not, it be merged back into the main project? Cheers, SalopianJames - previously Colds7ream (talk) 09:41, 4 January 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-01-04T09:41:00.000Z","author":"SalopianJames","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-SalopianJames-2012-01-04T09:41:00.000Z-Space_Stations_working_group","replies":[]}}-->

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Nominations for the "Military Historian of the Year" for 2011 are now open. If you would like to nominate an editor for this award, please do so here. Voting will open on 22 January and run for seven days. Thanks! On behalf of the coordinators, Nick-D (talk) and Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 23:09, 15 January 2012 (UTC) You were sent this message because you are a listed as a member of the Military history WikiProject.__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-01-15T23:09:00.000Z","author":"The ed17","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-The_ed17-2012-01-15T23:09:00.000Z-Military_Historian_of_the_Year","replies":[],"displayName":"Ed"}}-->

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Hello, WDGraham. You have new messages at SalopianJames's talk page.
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SalopianJames - previously Colds7ream (talk) 13:14, 26 January 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-01-26T13:14:00.000Z","author":"SalopianJames","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-SalopianJames-2012-01-26T13:14:00.000Z-Talkback_2","replies":[]}}-->

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Could you refrain from removing orbital inclination data from the orbit section in the spaceflight timeline articles? (like 1982 in spaceflight) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trurle (talk • contribs) 03:47, 15 February 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-02-15T03:47:00.000Z","author":"Trurle","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Trurle-2012-02-15T03:47:00.000Z-Objection_to_data_removal","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-02-15T08:31:00.000Z-Trurle-2012-02-15T03:47:00.000Z"]}}-->

• Please could you refrain from adding it. The article is part of a large series of articles which summarise spaceflights - they are not expected to be a one-stop source for information, and it was decided that only a summary of the orbital data should be added to the list articles. Any changes to that format must be applied to all of the articles, and therefore should be raised at WT:TLS or WT:SPACEFLIGHT before being made. The same goes for adding the masses of spacecraft. Detailed information on the orbit and spacecraft should instead be present in individual articles for the spacecraft in question. I would also ask that you read the guidelines at WP:TLS, and compare your work with other articles such as 2008 in spaceflight or 2011 in spaceflight as I think they might help you to ensure that your articles are more in keeping with the established format for these articles --W. D. Graham _{(previously GW)} 08:31, 15 February 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-02-15T08:31:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-02-15T08:31:00.000Z-Trurle-2012-02-15T03:47:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"W."}}-->

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The information on the VLS V3 article deals exclusively with the accident involving the launcher, so according to WP naming conventions it should be renamed to 2003 Alcantara VLS accident - similar to Space Shuttle Columbia disaster. There is nothing on the article about the rocket itself. Therefore, I'm going to propose the article be moved back. Limongi (talk) 12:37, 7 March 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-03-07T12:37:00.000Z","author":"Limongi","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Limongi-2012-03-07T12:37:00.000Z-VLS","replies":[]}}-->

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The downlink is looking inative. So can I start a new one? It will be published in the Talk page of wikiproject space flight --Monareal (talk) 10:22, 30 March 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-03-30T10:22:00.000Z","author":"Monareal","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Monareal-2012-03-30T10:22:00.000Z-Downlink_issue","replies":[]}}-->

Sorry , It cannot be made!. But I may assist you with the downlink.--Monareal (talk) 12:49, 30 March 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-03-30T12:49:00.000Z","author":"Monareal","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Monareal-2012-03-30T12:49:00.000Z-Downlink_issue","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-03-30T20:13:00.000Z-Monareal-2012-03-30T12:49:00.000Z"]}}-->

Certainly. The only reason it is inactive is because nobody was doing anything apart from me. --W. D. Graham 20:13, 30 March 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-03-30T20:13:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-03-30T20:13:00.000Z-Monareal-2012-03-30T12:49:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"W."}}-->

Okay, What must I do? It was 1'o clock in the night when you sent your reply. I and my brother are frequently visiting nasatv.com so we may be able to provide info for orbit imformation(I speak Malayalam so there could be mistakes in my english grammer)--Monareal (talk) 08:26, 31 March 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-03-31T08:26:00.000Z","author":"Monareal","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Monareal-2012-03-31T08:26:00.000Z-Downlink_issue","replies":[]}}-->

Could you comment at: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spaceflight#Upload_of_Marshall_Space_Flight_Center.27s_Image_Archive?Smallman12q (talk) 23:19, 4 April 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-04-04T23:19:00.000Z","author":"Smallman12q","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Smallman12q-2012-04-04T23:19:00.000Z-Image_upload_permissions","replies":[]}}-->

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What must I do with the downlink?--Monareal (talk) 03:27, 15 April 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-04-15T03:27:00.000Z","author":"Monareal","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Monareal-2012-04-15T03:27:00.000Z-Al_talk_bak","replies":[]}}-->

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While adding the time for the next Long March launch on-to the relevant template, I noticed an error in the template (Template:Launching/Long March): that launch will happen at 20:50 UTC on April 29, but somehow when the template converts the time to local time, it shows "May 30" (!). Can you check where the bug is? Thanks! Galactic Penguin SST (talk) 07:37, 26 April 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-04-26T07:37:00.000Z","author":"Galactic Penguin SST","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Galactic_Penguin_SST-2012-04-26T07:37:00.000Z-Problems_with_the_launch_template....","replies":[]}}-->

Have a ball!

Just a note to say that I think your List of Oko satellites is great work. Secretlondon (talk) 21:13, 5 May 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-05T21:13:00.000Z","author":"Secretlondon","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Secretlondon-2012-05-05T21:13:00.000Z-List_of_oko_satellites","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-05-06T10:05:00.000Z-Secretlondon-2012-05-05T21:13:00.000Z"]}}-->

Thanks --W. D. Graham 10:05, 6 May 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-06T10:05:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-05-06T10:05:00.000Z-Secretlondon-2012-05-05T21:13:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"W."}}-->

I was just wondering, if at the time or indeed now, that when you deactivated my request for uninvolved assistance on the ISS talkpage, were you aware that it was a request for "uninvolved" assistance ? Penyulap ☏ 04:44, 5 May 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-05T04:44:00.000Z","author":"Penyulap","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Penyulap-2012-05-05T04:44:00.000Z-Hi_WD","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-05-05T06:58:00.000Z-Penyulap-2012-05-05T04:44:00.000Z"]}}-->

There was a consensus to remove it and end the discussion. --W. D. Graham 06:58, 5 May 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-05T06:58:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-05-05T06:58:00.000Z-Penyulap-2012-05-05T04:44:00.000Z","replies":["c-Penyulap-2012-05-05T08:15:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-05-05T06:58:00.000Z"],"displayName":"W."}}-->

Fair enough, was any party involved in said discussion and consensus uninvolved ? Penyulap ☏ 08:15, 5 May 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-05T08:15:00.000Z","author":"Penyulap","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Penyulap-2012-05-05T08:15:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-05-05T06:58:00.000Z","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-05-05T08:18:00.000Z-Penyulap-2012-05-05T08:15:00.000Z"]}}-->

That is irrelevant. You can't call someone in from outside to overrule a community decision just because you aren't happy with it. --W. D. Graham 08:18, 5 May 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-05T08:18:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-05-05T08:18:00.000Z-Penyulap-2012-05-05T08:15:00.000Z","replies":["c-Penyulap-2012-05-08T15:54:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-05-05T08:18:00.000Z"],"displayName":"W."}}-->

well, I was sort of considering returning the template for uninvolved help to the talkpage because I'm kind of thinking that a fresh approach from a complete stranger might help change things. Penyulap ☏ 15:54, 8 May 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-08T15:54:00.000Z","author":"Penyulap","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Penyulap-2012-05-08T15:54:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-05-05T08:18:00.000Z","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-05-08T16:13:00.000Z-Penyulap-2012-05-08T15:54:00.000Z"]}}-->

No, you just want to keep admin shopping, as you have been trying to all along; oh, and for the record, you are the only editor who wants to "change things" - and there is a consensus to keep it the way it is, so are you are saying that you are above consensus? If you try to raise this issue again it will do nothing but prove that you are a disruptive editor, and I will have absolutely no hesitation in requesting that you are either blocked, or topic-banned. --W. D. Graham 16:13, 8 May 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-08T16:13:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-05-08T16:13:00.000Z-Penyulap-2012-05-08T15:54:00.000Z","replies":["c-Penyulap-2012-05-09T07:03:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-05-08T16:13:00.000Z"],"displayName":"W."}}-->

But if I was shopping about, doesn't that mean that at least one admin must have already given me a decision about the matter ? Penyulap ☏ 07:03, 9 May 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-09T07:03:00.000Z","author":"Penyulap","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Penyulap-2012-05-09T07:03:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-05-08T16:13:00.000Z","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-05-09T07:07:00.000Z-Penyulap-2012-05-09T07:03:00.000Z"]}}-->

Ckatz did give you an answer, you just didn't like it. --W. D. Graham 07:07, 9 May 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-09T07:07:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-05-09T07:07:00.000Z-Penyulap-2012-05-09T07:03:00.000Z","replies":["c-Penyulap-2012-05-09T07:36:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-05-09T07:07:00.000Z"],"displayName":"W."}}-->

Well I was going to ask him if he was speaking as an admin or just as an editor, but I saw on his page you asked him to have a look anyhow. I think that it can't be admin shopping if Ckatz is just acting as an editor. Penyulap ☏ 07:36, 9 May 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-09T07:36:00.000Z","author":"Penyulap","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-Penyulap-2012-05-09T07:36:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-05-09T07:07:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

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Now I know what Wikipedia is not. I've started contributing to ExoMars. Starkiller88 (talk) 16:33, 15 May 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-15T16:33:00.000Z","author":"Starkiller88","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Starkiller88-2012-05-15T16:33:00.000Z-ExoMars","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-05-17T22:09:00.000Z-Starkiller88-2012-05-15T16:33:00.000Z"]}}-->

For a minute there, I thought you might genuinely want to be helpful, but you're already back to vandalism. Do it again, and you will be blocked. --W. D. Graham 22:09, 17 May 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-17T22:09:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-05-17T22:09:00.000Z-Starkiller88-2012-05-15T16:33:00.000Z","replies":["c-115.135.144.255-2012-05-18T16:11:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-05-17T22:09:00.000Z"],"displayName":"W."}}-->

I may be back to vandalism because of BatteryIncluded who reiterated that claim to me that Fobos will not be repeated. 115.135.144.255 (talk) 16:11, 18 May 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-18T16:11:00.000Z","author":"115.135.144.255","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-115.135.144.255-2012-05-18T16:11:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-05-17T22:09:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Thankyou GW Graham. I am convinced that user Starkiller88 is not a vandal but suffers of a mental condition, making it practically impossible to reason with him but I'll join you there and hopefully I'll help you adress this hopless case. BatteryIncluded (talk) 17:19, 20 May 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-20T17:19:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2012-05-20T17:19:00.000Z-ANI:_Starkiller","replies":["c-BatteryIncluded-2012-05-20T17:36:00.000Z-BatteryIncluded-2012-05-20T17:19:00.000Z"]}}-->

That was the fastest member ban I have ever seen. Keep an eye open for some of his other suspected sock-puppets: Starkiller, StarKiller53861, StarkillerZZZ. Cheers, - BatteryIncluded (talk) 17:36, 20 May 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-20T17:36:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2012-05-20T17:36:00.000Z-BatteryIncluded-2012-05-20T17:19:00.000Z","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-05-20T17:40:00.000Z-BatteryIncluded-2012-05-20T17:36:00.000Z"]}}-->

I don't see any similarities in editing patterns, so they're probably just users with similar names. I think he's more likely to come back as an IP, so watch out for 115.133 series IPs behaving strangely. --W. D. Graham 17:40, 20 May 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-20T17:40:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-05-20T17:40:00.000Z-BatteryIncluded-2012-05-20T17:36:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"W."}}-->

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I've reduced your template in size from 4276 bytes to 1657 bytes with the same functionality, hopefully! I would be grateful if you could check it still works properly. Thanks — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:03, 19 June 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-06-19T22:03:00.000Z","author":"MSGJ","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-MSGJ-2012-06-19T22:03:00.000Z-Template:Launching","replies":[]}}-->

I suggest you visit this talk page and this talk page. Your move was not needed since the whole page was part of a major revamping of the article List_of_ICBMs. Mrt3366 ^(Talk?) 15:43, 22 June 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-06-22T15:43:00.000Z","author":"Mrt3366","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Mrt3366-2012-06-22T15:43:00.000Z-Your_page_move","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-06-22T15:59:00.000Z-Mrt3366-2012-06-22T15:43:00.000Z"]}}-->

In that case, you shouldn't have put a draft page in article space. That said, it would make sense to have both a plain list and a comparison, like we have for orbital launch systems (list, comparison) --W. D. Graham 15:59, 22 June 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-06-22T15:59:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-06-22T15:59:00.000Z-Mrt3366-2012-06-22T15:43:00.000Z","replies":["c-Mrt3366-2012-06-23T07:35:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-06-22T15:59:00.000Z"],"displayName":"W."}}-->

"you shouldn't have put a draft page in article space" - My bad. I honestly didn't know about that. But you could've informed us (me or Anir1uph) about it before moving it. Anyways let's continue to talk on the talk page. Mrt3366 ^(Talk?) 07:35, 23 June 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-06-23T07:35:00.000Z","author":"Mrt3366","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Mrt3366-2012-06-23T07:35:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-06-22T15:59:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Hello, WDGraham. You have new messages at Talk:List of ICBMs.
Message added Anir1uph (talk) 20:58, 22 June 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-06-22T20:58:00.000Z","author":"Anir1uph","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Anir1uph-2012-06-22T20:58:00.000Z-Talkback_3","replies":[]}}-->

FYI: [1] BatteryIncluded (talk) 04:05, 24 June 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-06-24T04:05:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2012-06-24T04:05:00.000Z-Re:_Starkiller88","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-06-24T10:28:00.000Z-BatteryIncluded-2012-06-24T04:05:00.000Z"]}}-->

Probably for the best. I don't understand why he started harassing you again. --W. D. Graham 10:28, 24 June 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-06-24T10:28:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-06-24T10:28:00.000Z-BatteryIncluded-2012-06-24T04:05:00.000Z","replies":["c-BatteryIncluded-2012-06-25T22:02:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-06-24T10:28:00.000Z"],"displayName":"W."}}-->

Little of what he did made sense. Oh well, that's the nature of Wikipedia. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 22:02, 25 June 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-06-25T22:02:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2012-06-25T22:02:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-06-24T10:28:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

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I need a response on the Template:Infobox cargo spacecraft talk page.--Craigboy (talk) 23:14, 26 June 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-06-26T23:14:00.000Z","author":"Craigboy","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Craigboy-2012-06-26T23:14:00.000Z-Template:Infobox_cargo_spacecraft","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-07-01T15:37:00.000Z-Craigboy-2012-06-26T23:14:00.000Z"]}}-->

 Done --W. D. Graham 15:37, 1 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-01T15:37:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-07-01T15:37:00.000Z-Craigboy-2012-06-26T23:14:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"W."}}-->

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Guppy Aircraft is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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Yeah, get rid of it. --W. D. Graham 15:37, 1 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-01T15:37:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-07-01T15:37:00.000Z-Clarityfiend-2012-06-30T21:39:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"W."}}-->

here: I expressed the same feelings in my reply, and i am sure Mrt understands that. No need to go back to them, after all he is the one who has contributed the most to the new article! Seemed a bit harsh, that all i am saying. Thanks! Anir1uph (talk) 14:00, 1 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-01T14:00:00.000Z","author":"Anir1uph","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Anir1uph-2012-07-01T14:00:00.000Z-For_your_consideration","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-07-01T15:37:00.000Z-Anir1uph-2012-07-01T14:00:00.000Z"]}}-->

I'm not being harsh on him, it's just that he is a very inexperienced editor and I want to make sure that he grasps the basics, particularly WP:CONSENSUS, fairly quickly before he creates problems for himself elsewhere. --W. D. Graham 15:37, 1 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-01T15:37:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-07-01T15:37:00.000Z-Anir1uph-2012-07-01T14:00:00.000Z","replies":["c-Anir1uph-2012-07-01T17:22:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-01T15:37:00.000Z"],"displayName":"W."}}-->

I know you mean well. Cheers! :D Anir1uph (talk) 17:22, 1 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-01T17:22:00.000Z","author":"Anir1uph","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Anir1uph-2012-07-01T17:22:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-01T15:37:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Thanks for fixing that template. Do you think it was worth me transliterating it from the Russian wiki? How much work was it for you? Secretlondon (talk) 13:52, 2 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-02T13:52:00.000Z","author":"Secretlondon","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Secretlondon-2012-07-02T13:52:00.000Z-Orbital_launches_in_1982","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-07-05T08:57:00.000Z-Secretlondon-2012-07-02T13:52:00.000Z"]}}-->

• It took about a quarter of the time and a fifth of the effort that it usually takes. --W. D. Graham 08:57, 5 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-05T08:57:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-07-05T08:57:00.000Z-Secretlondon-2012-07-02T13:52:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"W."}}-->

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Very nice, I have begun propagating it to the appropriate pages. Ng.j (talk) 17:45, 10 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-10T17:45:00.000Z","author":"Ng.j","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Ng.j-2012-07-10T17:45:00.000Z-Template:GPS_satellites","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-07-10T19:24:00.000Z-Ng.j-2012-07-10T17:45:00.000Z"]}}-->

Thanks, I do seem to have missed a few. --W. D. Graham 19:24, 10 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-10T19:24:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-07-10T19:24:00.000Z-Ng.j-2012-07-10T17:45:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"W."}}-->

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Mir Almaat Ali Almaat ☏ From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 11:13, 12 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-12T11:13:00.000Z","author":"Mir Almaat 1 S1","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Mir_Almaat_1_S1-2012-07-12T11:13:00.000Z-I_ask_if_this_would_be_wise?","replies":[],"displayName":"Mir Almaat Ali Almaat"}}-->

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The Special Barnstar

Stopping by with a small token of our appreciation that you took the time to respond to our questions. It helps us immensely, thank you much! Cheers, Nettrom (talk) 15:17, 25 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-25T15:17:00.000Z","author":"Nettrom","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Nettrom-2012-07-25T15:17:00.000Z-A_barnstar_for_you!","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-07-27T07:34:00.000Z-Nettrom-2012-07-25T15:17:00.000Z"]}}-->

• Thanks. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me. --W. D. Graham 07:34, 27 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-27T07:34:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-07-27T07:34:00.000Z-Nettrom-2012-07-25T15:17:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"W."}}-->

Hello WDGraham,

Thank you for agreeing we me that it is necessary for the spaceflight project to move on.

I have not read every conversation you have had with Penyulap, but it is clear that, at least in the project talk page, you were the main one that disagreed with him. He seems unwilling to move on if things remain as they have been. In a sense I agree with him.

My request is that you assure him things will change. With all due respect, I think you have not treated him very well on some occasions. Perhaps if you apologized to him he would be willing to move on. We did not know exactly what his mental health issue was, but Pesky's insight does give us a good reference point to how to work with him.

Kind regards,

--Wingtipvorte^X PTT ∅ 00:55, 18 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-18T00:55:00.000Z","author":"Wingtipvortex","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-18T00:55:00.000Z-Request","replies":[]}}-->

I would be quite happy to apologise for any incivility on my part if he is willing to move on, however from the post he left on his talkpage this morning, he has made it clear that he is not willing to leave this issue alone, and he has made it clear that he is only pushing this for the sake of process, not to improve the article. I am not prepared to accept or agree to sacrificing article quality or content for the sake of upholding process:

While Wikipedia has many elements of a bureaucracy, it is not governed by statute: it is not a moot court, and rules are not the purpose of the community. Written rules do not themselves set accepted practice. Rather, they document already existing community consensus regarding what should be accepted and what should be rejected.

While Wikipedia's written policies and guidelines should be taken seriously, they can be misused. Do not follow an overly strict interpretation of the letter of policy without consideration for the principles of policies. If the rules truly prevent you from improving the encyclopedia, ignore them. Disagreements are resolved through consensus-based discussion, rather than through tightly sticking to rules and procedures. Furthermore, policies and guidelines themselves may be changed to reflect evolving consensus.

A procedural error made in a proposal or request is not grounds for rejecting that proposal or request.

— What Wikipedia is not, Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy

Unless an agreement to move on can be reached, there is no point apologising because nothing will change, and given his past form he will probably try to interpret it as an admission of guilt on my part which he will then try to use against me and other editors who disagree with him, to justify his actions. If I have been in any way incivil towards him, that does not justify his conduct in this matter.

I am sick of discussing this issue, as is everybody involved except Penyulap. --W. D. Graham 11:14, 18 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-18T11:14:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-07-18T11:14:00.000Z-Request","replies":["c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-19T17:25:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-18T11:14:00.000Z"],"displayName":"W."}}-->

I'm sure you read Pesky's and Galactic Penguin's comments. It is not that he is unwilling to move on, he is unable to. That doesn't mean we need to everything his way, but we should be considerate.

By apology I don't mean apology for disagreeing to remove the British template in ISS, rather, for whatever personal disagreements you two have had. You are correct in that your attitude towards him should not justify his conduct. The thirsty man analogy really brings his conduct into perspective. I found some very good reading at WP:AUTIE. Read it, it may change your perspective.--Wingtipvorte^X PTT ∅ 17:25, 19 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-19T17:25:00.000Z","author":"Wingtipvortex","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-19T17:25:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-18T11:14:00.000Z","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-07-19T20:48:00.000Z-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-19T17:25:00.000Z"]}}-->

He's now trying to intimidate the users he disagrees with. Threatening to take this dispute to ARBCOM is ridiculous (its a simple content dispute which they will refuse to hear) - he knows this as he had a similar case rejected last year. I believe he is just trying to use the threat of arbitration to get his own way. He's also filed an SPI agaisnt Mir Almaat based solely around the fact that Mir asked an administrator for advice in dealing with him, and providing no evidence of any actual wrongdoing. I'm sorry, but I can find no way to assume good faith of that action, it is purely malicious and intended to harass a user who has spoken out against him. Until he backs down from this I can see no point in trying to work with him, and I am not going to respond well to threats like this at all.

With regards the dispute itself, while obviously I cannot speak for the other editors involved, I would be strongly opposed to reopening discussion, for four main reasons:

Firstly, Penyulap has made it abundantly clear that his pursuance of this matter is in no way intended to improve the article, but merely to follow process to the letter of the law. We are here to build an encyclopaedia not some kind of model community. Content is more important than policy - that is one of the most fundamental policies of Wikipedia. The means do not justify the ends.

Secondly, I have already wasted far to much time on this discussion, and I have already had enough assurances from Penyulap that he just wants a civilised discussion, or that he will go with the outcome - but once he feels he has lost or is losing the discussion, this goes out the window. He is relentless, and will not drop it. If we let him open another discussion at this stage we will still be going round in circles at Christmas.

Thirdly, since he considers all previous discussion to be invalid, he will see the position going into any further discussion as being significantly different form how it actually is. Wiktionary defines status quo as "The state of things; the way things are, as opposed to the way they could be; the existing state of affairs" - so regardless of what has happened before the article is as it is, and that is the status quo. Before any further discussion could possibly be held, Penyulap would have to accept that the article is as it is, and that any proposal he makes would be to change away from the status quo, not to change back to it which is by definition, impossible.

Fourthly, this is only treating the symptoms of the problem. I am not the only editor who has voiced concerns about Penyulap's editing and behaviour in general, and while I agree that my conduct towards him may not have been as civil as it could have been, and his problems may be the result of his autism, even if we can and do satisfy his issues with this one dispute, we still have the underlying problem. At the end of the day this problem isn't going to go away unless Penyulap leaves, and I don't think any of us truly want that to happen - I know I don't as he can be a huge asset to the project. The real way to resolve this problem is to find a way that we can work with him, not against him or under him.

I would be interested to hear your views on this. --W. D. Graham 20:48, 19 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-19T20:48:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-07-19T20:48:00.000Z-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-19T17:25:00.000Z","replies":["c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-20T23:53:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-19T20:48:00.000Z"],"displayName":"W."}}-->

I haven't looked into the Mir issue, so I cannot comment. Your reasons are very valid, and you are correct about the status quo. Whether or not the ENG VAR ever received consensus, the article is in British and that is how it is. I too do not want him gone from the project.

He says he would be happy to consider the matter closed if a new discussion is brought up and all editors voice their opinions. I know you are reading his talk page and my conversations with him there, so I won't repeat myself. A simple poll, either support the status quo or say why the article should be in American. I have no reason to distrust his word but maybe you do and I'd ask you voice that. If that can solve all our problems, I'd be willing to do it. But I'm not 100% sure that it will, as you said, that may be only the symptoms of the problem. I need to do some more thinking about where to go from here; I don't think we are at a dead end, but this will not be easy to resolve, though I think we all want to. --Wingtipvorte^X PTT ∅ 23:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-20T23:53:00.000Z","author":"Wingtipvortex","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-20T23:53:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-19T20:48:00.000Z","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-07-21T11:25:00.000Z-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-20T23:53:00.000Z"]}}-->

I would agree, in principle, to a discussion if it were moved in good faith, with justified rationale, and appropriate safeguards were in place. But Penyulap's request is based on a letter-of-the-law argument, with no regard for article content and to the detriment of the spirit of the law. Under those conditions, I am not prepared to enter into a long-term discussion which is sure to become heated, when it is clear that one party is more concerned with doing things allegedly by the book, without concern for what that will do to the article.

I would also point out that the third discussion he started on Talk:ISS did find a strong consensus, among the few editors left on the page to keep the article as it was. There is also the question of how many editors have been driven away by the protracted nature of the discussion, as opposed to the outcome of the previous one, and hence whether any poll would be representative.

That said, if there were a discussion in the future, clear rules would have to be laid down, including enforceable sanctions against Penyulap should he refuse to accept the outcome for whatever reason, a prohibition against voting without rationale in the !voter's own words, and with nationalistic rationale such as "it should be in American English because we paid for it" disallowed. All parties would have to accept, or at least acknowledge, that the article is currently as it is, and the proposal would have to find a consensus to change the article, not to keep it as it is, and as a matter of principle I could not accept Penyulap's demands that changes be made before the !vote and kept unless a consensus to revert can be found.

It is worth noting that editors in other areas of Wikipedia also seem to be coming out against him, so it is becoming increasingly clear that the real issue is not his inability to work with me, but his inability to work with other editors in general, and (if you read some of the comments related to the Beatles dispute) the fact that he seems to go looking for arguments. I would suggest that Penyulap be encouraged to undertake an editor review before we proceed any further, as I believe some constructive input, rather than negative criticism, might help the situation. --W. D. Graham 11:25, 21 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-21T11:25:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-07-21T11:25:00.000Z-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-20T23:53:00.000Z","replies":["c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-23T18:39:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-21T11:25:00.000Z"],"displayName":"W."}}-->

I glanced over comments regarding the Beattles issue on his talk page but didn't read too much. I agree with you idea of safeguards for a discussion. I would be happy to be the neutral third party that opens the discussion if that is what is decided to do. Or not, it doesn't really matter to me who opens it or if it is opened at all. If it is not, then I'm afraid I'm out of ideas and don't know what else to try, so I will scratch off all this from my to-do list.

I wholeheartedly agree on an editor review. This is something we (all editors) should do on a regular basis. I'll propose that to him. Positive is good, especially since there seems to be little of it left to pull out in this discussion. --Wingtipvorte^X PTT ∅ 18:39, 23 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-23T18:39:00.000Z","author":"Wingtipvortex","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-23T18:39:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-21T11:25:00.000Z","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-07-23T22:21:00.000Z-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-23T18:39:00.000Z"]}}-->

I think proving, be it through an editor review or otherwise, that he can address the other issues must be a prerequisite to any discussion, as must be his acceptance that the article is as it is, and discussion must be held before changes are made, not afterwards. He must also accept that the discussion finding no clear consensus would result in no change to the article. From his recent comments, I am not convinced that he would accept that. I would also ask him to refrain from making ad hominem arguments based around an assumption that all other editors involved are acting in bad faith, such as the one he posted on your talk page.

With regards the comment you posted on his talk page, I would advise that he not be encouraged to contact editors who had held similar positions to him in the past, as I believe this would constitute canvassing which is not appropriate for discussions of this nature.

My other problem with reopening this on his terms is that his argument is based around trying to overturn an old decision due to a perceived procedural error, and I can see little value in an RFC on whether an editor acted correctly or not. --W. D. Graham 22:21, 23 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-23T22:21:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-07-23T22:21:00.000Z-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-23T18:39:00.000Z","replies":["c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-24T00:57:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-23T22:21:00.000Z"],"displayName":"W."}}-->

I've put together a draft of a possible way to lead the discussion. It is in no way complete nor how I want to lead it, rather iy is just some ideas thrown together. I would appreciate your feedback.

I would like both you and him to agree to the terms of the discussion before it is brought up.

In no way did I encourage canvassing. My comment to him, and how he appears to have understood it, is that it is OK to invite all the other editors he claimed were being shunned from discussion in the past. I think it is appropriate to have as many voices as possible speak up in order to obtain a stronger consensus either way. --Wingtipvorte^X PTT ∅ 00:57, 24 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-24T00:57:00.000Z","author":"Wingtipvortex","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-24T00:57:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-23T22:21:00.000Z","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-07-24T06:43:00.000Z-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-24T00:57:00.000Z"]}}-->

If we do go ahead with it, it would have to be a discussion, rather than a simple poll. A poll would be too easily swayed by their own national preferences, rather than what is good for the article. I also disagree with restricting options, as, for example, there are Canadian elements on the station, so en-CA would be a valid option. I think that all editors who specify a dialect should have to prove that the dialect they specify is more appropriate than other plausible dialects, so a !vote for en-US would have to show that en-US is more appropriate than en-CA as well as en-GB. --W. D. Graham 06:43, 24 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-24T06:43:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":10,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-07-24T06:43:00.000Z-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-24T00:57:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"W."}}-->

Ok, well if it's just one to one, and the edit looks good, or is not outrageously bad I like it. If there is a serious problem, I'll revert and have a chat and see how we can find common ground. If people have spoken on an issue clearly, I remember what they have said, so if someone changes the text in a way that against the consensus, and I also don't agree with the changes, then I do put myself in the firing line to protect the consensus, even with the bullying and the absolute resonant hallmark phrase of an wp:owner "It's only you". Well, screw you, because you can try your bully tactics and other editors who have stated clearly and just once do not need to say it twice. Either go politely talk to those editors and change their minds or get reverted. Simple. I don't care if it is archived or not, it has to be reasonable, or circumstances have to change first. If two people disagree with me, and then leave for a holiday, I'm not going to revert behind their back even it I think they're wrong. Either I persuade, or they can have their dumbass article. But I prefer to help, I love to see the extra editing and detail added to my work, and almost always agree about the crap parts and how they need to be cut. Still, I can see off multiple owners at one time all by myself now that most of my early wikilife was spent growing up battling against multiparty ownership issues. It's a complex problem for most people to spot, and I'd like to make the improvements to the WP:OWN policy, but so far I have stuck with improving just the single party ownership parts, as I would look too involved to assist more, until after those problems are resolved. It's a catch 22 for admins that the more places they get involved in, the less places that they can help out in.

— Penyulap

While he makes specific references to another incident, this is still quite a clear tirade about the ISS issue, and on the back of this I believe my continued attempts to discuss this with him would be fruitless. --W. D. Graham 19:19, 24 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-24T19:19:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-07-24T19:19:00.000Z-Request","replies":["c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-24T20:02:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-24T19:19:00.000Z"],"displayName":"W."}}-->

I see your point, and won't at all hold it against you or think wrong of you if you decide to no longer pursue the issue. --Wingtipvorte^X PTT ∅ 20:02, 24 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-24T20:02:00.000Z","author":"Wingtipvortex","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-24T20:02:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-24T19:19:00.000Z","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-07-24T20:15:00.000Z-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-24T20:02:00.000Z"]}}-->

I'll see what his next move is, but I'm increasingly getting the impression (particularly from his focus on ad homeniem arguments and attacks) that he doesn't want a solution, he just wants to get his own way by any means necessary. If that is the case, then I don't think any amount of discussion would resolve the issue. I can only hope that the failure of his RfA might help him to realise that the problem is not the individual editors he is dealing with. --W. D. Graham 20:15, 24 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-24T20:15:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-07-24T20:15:00.000Z-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-24T20:02:00.000Z","replies":["c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-27T17:59:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-24T20:15:00.000Z"],"displayName":"W."}}-->

He did say something to the effect of "I'm trying to reinvent myself," so I am hopeful. --Wingtipvorte^X PTT ∅ 17:59, 27 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-27T17:59:00.000Z","author":"Wingtipvortex","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-27T17:59:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-24T20:15:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Well, after my own issues with Penyulap, I won't be attempting to help him any longer, so this whole deal is closed in my books. Sorry we couldn't take it anywhere. I'm no longer a member of Spaceflight project, though I'll continue the discussion at the template, as I'd like to see that left in a good condition. Cheers! --Wingtipvorte^X PTT ∅ 18:53, 30 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-30T18:53:00.000Z","author":"Wingtipvortex","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-30T18:53:00.000Z-Continued","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-07-30T19:25:00.000Z-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-30T18:53:00.000Z"]}}-->

Assuming you're referring to the discussion on his talk page, he seems to be using allegations of sockpuppetry to attack users he disagrees with - as he did with the SPI against Mir. I'm not sure where the comment about you came from, but I would characterise his allegations as a personal attack. Coupled with everything else, I would implore you not to walk away, but to take this up at WP:AN/I. --W. D. Graham 19:25, 30 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-30T19:25:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-07-30T19:25:00.000Z-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-30T18:53:00.000Z","replies":["c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-30T20:23:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-30T19:25:00.000Z"],"displayName":"W."}}-->

Well, I was about to. I'm a bit hesitant to do so now as I told him I'd let him go on his way. My plan was to do so if he bothered me again. Though your points about Mir are starting to make me reconsider. If he keeps attempting to intimidate users, he will become a great problem. There are definitely enough allegations against him to get him permanently blocked, I think. He thinks I am Mir and Mlm42, but this [2] may also mean he thinks you are involved. Read the part about the British flag. Dunno. I'll continue thinking, but I wouldn't mind hearing more of your thoughts. --Wingtipvorte^X PTT ∅ 20:23, 30 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-30T20:23:00.000Z","author":"Wingtipvortex","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-30T20:23:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-30T19:25:00.000Z","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-07-30T20:51:00.000Z-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-30T20:23:00.000Z"]}}-->

Yeah, I'd assumed he was going to accuse me and Mir of being the same person, at which point I was going to invite a checkuser to confirm that he was making it up, and request that he be indef blocked. I really don't understand why he's decided to attack you, you were about the only person who was still trying to work with him. From this post I'd say that not only is he not going to drop it, he actually seems to have somehow interpreted your reply to him as an admission of guilt. I think that's enough evidence of wrongdoing, and I'd strongly suggest you move ahead with an ANI. --W. D. Graham 20:51, 30 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-30T20:51:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-07-30T20:51:00.000Z-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-30T20:23:00.000Z","replies":["c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-30T21:03:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-30T20:51:00.000Z","c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-30T21:03:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-30T20:51:00.000Z-1"],"displayName":"W."}}-->

I think at this point you'd better stop winding up WDGraham, and pushing. I'm happy to let you go on your way editing with one account per editing area, other people may not be so generous. Do you want this to go to ANI ? just make further comments on this talkpage using the wingtip account and I promise you right now, that is where I will take it. Penyulap ☏ 20:58, 30 Jul 2012 (UTC)

Unbelievable you think we are the same person. --Wingtipvorte^X PTT ∅ 21:03, 30 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-30T21:03:00.000Z","author":"Wingtipvortex","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-30T21:03:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-30T20:51:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

(edit conflict)Yes, OK. That is a bit too much. I'm going to push for a permanent block. Standby. --Wingtipvorte^X PTT ∅ 21:03, 30 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-30T21:03:00.000Z","author":"Wingtipvortex","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-30T21:03:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-07-30T20:51:00.000Z-1","replies":[]}}-->

Well, here is his ANI. He's taken me to ANI as well. Your comments are appreciated. --Wingtipvorte^X PTT ∅ 21:23, 30 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-30T21:23:00.000Z","author":"Wingtipvortex","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-30T21:23:00.000Z-Continued","replies":[]}}-->

Thank you for the support there. I hope him the best, but maybe now we can have some peace...--Wingtipvorte^X PTT ∅ 00:55, 31 July 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-07-31T00:55:00.000Z","author":"Wingtipvortex","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-31T00:55:00.000Z-Continued","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-08-01T09:50:00.000Z-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-31T00:55:00.000Z"]}}-->

That's okay. Unfortunately it had to be done, no real surprise about the outcome, hopefully once he settles down he can come back and be more constructive. I've closed the discussion at WT:SPACEFLIGHT as there's no real need for continued criticism of him, and I've opened a new section regarding the fallout, and suggesting that we revisit a couple of past discussions that he may have adversely affected.

I realise you probably want to get as far away from the spaceflight project as possible given the recent problems, but hopefully things will settle down now. If you were to reconsider your decision to leave, we would like to have you back. --W. D. Graham 09:50, 1 August 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-08-01T09:50:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-08-01T09:50:00.000Z-Wingtipvortex-2012-07-31T00:55:00.000Z","replies":["c-Wingtipvortex-2012-08-01T21:51:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-08-01T09:50:00.000Z"],"displayName":"W."}}-->

Not at all, regarding getting as far away as possible from spaceflight project. Simply put, I had no wishes to continue running into him. I'll go back, and give help where I can be useful. I'm going to put some suggestions in the project's talk page. --Wingtipvorte^X PTT ∅ 21:51, 1 August 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-08-01T21:51:00.000Z","author":"Wingtipvortex","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Wingtipvortex-2012-08-01T21:51:00.000Z-WDGraham-2012-08-01T09:50:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

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Hello, WDGraham. You have new messages at Template talk:Unmanned ISS resupply flights.
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I moved site because on wiki are used 2 names for 1 spacecraft, and Japanese Kounotori is used more commonly than HTV. If we are writing articles about few spaceships from 1 kind, we should use 1 name for titles, not 2 meaning the same. Thanks Kuki5050 (talk) 20:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-08-12T20:33:00.000Z","author":"Kuki5050","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kuki5050-2012-08-12T20:33:00.000Z-HTV-1","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-08-12T20:40:00.000Z-Kuki5050-2012-08-12T20:33:00.000Z"]}}-->

No, we should use the names they are actually called. HTV-1 was never called Kounotori. Its nothing but an anachronism. We can't alter history to make it more convenient for our articles. --W. D. Graham 20:40, 12 August 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-08-12T20:40:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-08-12T20:40:00.000Z-Kuki5050-2012-08-12T20:33:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"W."}}-->

Full ack about Kosmos 212 and Kosmos 213. But then Kosmos 186 and Kosmos 188 should be split, as this was the first unmanned automated docking of spacecraft in the history of spaceflight. Don't know to best do a split, though. Tony Mach (talk) 13:25, 20 August 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-08-20T13:25:00.000Z","author":"Tony Mach","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tony_Mach-2012-08-20T13:25:00.000Z-Kosmos_186_and_Kosmos_188","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-08-20T13:34:00.000Z-Tony_Mach-2012-08-20T13:25:00.000Z"]}}-->

• I'm quite happy to do that. --W. D. Graham 13:34, 20 August 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-08-20T13:34:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-08-20T13:34:00.000Z-Tony_Mach-2012-08-20T13:25:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"W."}}-->

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Hello, WDGraham. You have new messages at Template talk:Unmanned ISS resupply flights.
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Hi, saw your comments on the Village pump regarding WQA. Did you see the comments at the top of the proposal that it will not be redirected to ANI? Steven Zhang ^{Help resolve disputes!} 12:36, 21 August 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-08-21T12:36:00.000Z","author":"Steven Zhang","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Steven_Zhang-2012-08-21T12:36:00.000Z-Village_pump","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-08-23T08:44:00.000Z-Steven_Zhang-2012-08-21T12:36:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Steven"}}-->

I did not see that; I think it was added between me loading the page and clicking edit. While not merging the pages is a step in the right direction, the proposed alternative would seem to only deal with the most straightforward cases, and result in too many disputes reaching "formal" dispute resolution such as ANI far too quickly, before the users concerned have had a change to amicably resolve their disagreement. --W. D. Graham 08:44, 23 August 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-08-23T08:44:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-08-23T08:44:00.000Z-Steven_Zhang-2012-08-21T12:36:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"W."}}-->

Category:Progress spacecraft, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:43, 29 August 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-08-29T06:43:00.000Z","author":"The Bushranger","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-The_Bushranger-2012-08-29T06:43:00.000Z-Category:Progress_spacecraft","replies":[]}}-->

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Hey WDG. A couple of years ago you created an audit page for orbital spaceflight: audit of orbital spaceflights. Do you have a current version of an audit like this anywhere that you would be willing to share? Cheers. N2e (talk) 21:06, 7 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-07T21:06:00.000Z","author":"N2e","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-N2e-2012-10-07T21:06:00.000Z-Audit_of_orbital_spaceflights","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-10-07T21:48:00.000Z-N2e-2012-10-07T21:06:00.000Z"]}}-->

I'd forgotten I did that, never finished it and haven't maintained it. I'll try to update it at some point soon. --W. D. Graham 21:48, 7 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-07T21:48:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-10-07T21:48:00.000Z-N2e-2012-10-07T21:06:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"W."}}-->

Hi William, what do you think I should do with this? Galactic Penguin SST (talk) 01:07, 8 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-08T01:07:00.000Z","author":"Galactic Penguin SST","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Galactic_Penguin_SST-2012-10-08T01:07:00.000Z-A_bit_of_opinion_needed_for_the_2012_in_spaceflight_article","replies":[]}}-->

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I moved the page to a more specific title, which hopefully addresses your concerns. Thank you. Fotaun (talk) 05:27, 17 December 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-12-17T05:27:00.000Z","author":"Fotaun","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Fotaun-2012-12-17T05:27:00.000Z-Probes","replies":[]}}-->

To you and yours, Have a Merry ______ (fill in the blank) and Happy New Year! FWiW Bzuk (talk) 16:00, 23 December 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-12-23T16:00:00.000Z","author":"Bzuk","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Bzuk-2012-12-23T16:00:00.000Z-Season's_tidings!","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-12-23T17:58:00.000Z-Bzuk-2012-12-23T16:00:00.000Z"],"displayName":"FWiW Bzuk"}}-->

I'll go with Christmas. Thank you, and merry _____ to you as well. --W. D. Graham 17:58, 23 December 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-12-23T17:58:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-12-23T17:58:00.000Z-Bzuk-2012-12-23T16:00:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"W."}}-->

Festivas? FWiW Bzuk (talk) 18:00, 23 December 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-12-23T18:00:00.000Z","author":"Bzuk","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Bzuk-2012-12-23T18:00:00.000Z-Season's_tidings!","replies":["c-WDGraham-2012-12-25T16:45:00.000Z-Bzuk-2012-12-23T18:00:00.000Z"],"displayName":"FWiW Bzuk"}}-->

:) --W. D. Graham 16:45, 25 December 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-12-25T16:45:00.000Z","author":"WDGraham","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-WDGraham-2012-12-25T16:45:00.000Z-Bzuk-2012-12-23T18:00:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"W."}}-->

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