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New comments, questions and concerns go on the bottom of this page. Please use the "New section" tab above if you have a new topic! If you post here I will respond here; other interested parties may want to follow the conversation, and it's rude to force them to jump back and forth. Similarly, if I post to your talk page, please respond there. Don't bother with talkback templates, I watchlist all pages as needed.

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How to start a discussion about multiple articles in one place...

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OK, so, I need some help here (I'm still a fairly new & fresh editor here)...

I'd like to have a discussion about TV network ID concerning the articles for NBC, CBS, & American Broadcasting Company in one place, and involving you & user Wcquidditch (since it's the two of you that I'm having issues with concerning how those 3 TV networks should be IDed in the opening section for their respective articles). I'm not sure if Wikipedia has a policy about discussing multiple articles in one place, and I'd rather not deal with the hassle of having three three discussions (1 for NBC, 1 for CBS, & 1 for American Broadcasting Company) about network ID going on at the same time.

So, I'd really appreciate any help you can offer here. ClarkKentWannabe (talk) 02:23, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240728022300","author":"ClarkKentWannabe","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-ClarkKentWannabe-20240728022300-How_to_start_a_discussion_about_multiple_articles_in_one_place...","replies":["c-Oknazevad-20240728024000-ClarkKentWannabe-20240728022300"]}}-->

WT:TV is your best bet. I objected to your edits because ABC should match the article title, and NBC is factually incorrect; the sources you link to were from before the NBCUniversal merger, when the layers of corporate holding companies were different than now. But the network itself still has the full name "National Broadcasting Company". oknazevad (talk) 02:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240728024000","author":"Oknazevad","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Oknazevad-20240728024000-ClarkKentWannabe-20240728022300","replies":["c-ClarkKentWannabe-20240728025000-Oknazevad-20240728024000"]}}-->

So, what do you think about Wcquidditch claiming that the article for CBS should ID the network in the opening section as "CBS Broadcasting, Inc.", since they claim that is the network's "corporate name" (even though I've never seen an article for a TV network used the corporate name as an identifier in the opening section) & that the network hasn't used the full "Columbia Broadcasting System" branding in 50 years' time? ClarkKentWannabe (talk) 02:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240728025000","author":"ClarkKentWannabe","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-ClarkKentWannabe-20240728025000-Oknazevad-20240728024000","replies":["c-Oknazevad-20240728034800-ClarkKentWannabe-20240728025000"]}}-->

Well, he's right about that one. That is actually CBS's current actual name.

Each network is different. CBS completely abandoned the spelled-out version decades ago. NBC has not. ABC may have, but there's disambiguation considerations with that article (every proposal to move the article from the current title has not gained consensus, as there's other networks in the world that are also called "ABC", most notably the Australian Broadcasting Company). Trying to set up each exactly the same is the wrong thing to do. oknazevad (talk) 03:48, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240728034800","author":"Oknazevad","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Oknazevad-20240728034800-ClarkKentWannabe-20240728025000","replies":["c-ClarkKentWannabe-20240728054300-Oknazevad-20240728034800"]}}-->

But, should the opening section of a TV network's article ID the network by its "corporate name"?

I mean, the article for The CW IDs it in the opening section as "The CW Television Network", then "the CW", and finally, just "CW" (despite that first reference not being its corporate name, which is "The CW Network, LLC"), while the article for Trinity Broadcasting Network in the opening section waits until the network's third reference (after the full name & TBN abbreviation) to mention its "corporate name" as "Trinity Broadcasting of Texas, Inc.".

So, is Wcquidditch in the right about how CBS should be IDed in the opening section of its article? ClarkKentWannabe (talk) 05:43, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240728054300","author":"ClarkKentWannabe","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-ClarkKentWannabe-20240728054300-Oknazevad-20240728034800","replies":["c-Oknazevad-20240728151900-ClarkKentWannabe-20240728054300"]}}-->

Typically the full legal name of the company should be in the lead, so CBS's lead is correct. The CW article may need to be changed, but open a discussion on the talk page instead of just making a change, please. NBC is still correct as-is. oknazevad (talk) 15:19, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240728151900","author":"Oknazevad","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Oknazevad-20240728151900-ClarkKentWannabe-20240728054300","replies":["c-ClarkKentWannabe-20240728211600-Oknazevad-20240728151900"]}}-->

So, once again, I'd like some help...

As far as starting a discussion on the talk page for The CW about what network ID should be in the opening section of the article for the network, should an RfC be used? Or, just start a normal discussion?

And, just a forewarning: I've no clue what to suggest about a replacement network ID/branding for "The CW Television Network", so I probably wouldn't even suggest a replacement. ClarkKentWannabe (talk) 21:16, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240728211600","author":"ClarkKentWannabe","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-ClarkKentWannabe-20240728211600-Oknazevad-20240728151900","replies":["c-Oknazevad-20240728221400-ClarkKentWannabe-20240728211600"]}}-->

Just start a normal talk page discussion. Doesn't need to be an RFC at this point. But also don't be surprised if people say there's no need for a change. The reason to revert on CBS is because the old spelled out version is definitively not correct in 2024. oknazevad (talk) 22:14, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240728221400","author":"Oknazevad","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Oknazevad-20240728221400-ClarkKentWannabe-20240728211600","replies":[]}}-->

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Minor edit war on The Looney Tunes Show

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Can you check on the edits made by CriticallyThinking to make sure they are conducive to The Looney Tunes Show? It’s over very minor wording and I want to avoid it turning into an edit war of duelling egos. Ciscocat (talk) 13:28, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240808132800","author":"Ciscocat","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Ciscocat-20240808132800-Minor_edit_war_on_The_Looney_Tunes_Show","replies":["c-CriticallyThinking-20240808133500-Ciscocat-20240808132800"]}}-->

Your ego in edit-warring is what caused admins to ban you from editing other pages, such as Tom & Jerry (2021). Critics infamously criticized the series for its writing and departures from what made the Looney Tunes unique, even its lack of visual comedy. It's a fact. CriticallyThinking (talk) 13:35, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240808133500","author":"CriticallyThinking","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-CriticallyThinking-20240808133500-Ciscocat-20240808132800","replies":[]}}-->

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Edit/removal on Luther Bible Talk on 09/11/24

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Hi, I was the poster of the comment on the Luther Bible Talk page about Leviticus 18:22 which you deleted.

I believe that I brought up a valid point about a possible mistranslation by Luther which is different from the mistranslations that are already mentioned in the article (i.e. the "faith alone" mistranslation) and would add to the article.

Since I'm new to Wikipedia, I decided not to edit the article directly as I don't have enough info on the reasons for the mistranslation (i.e. possible different meaning of the word "Knaben" in the 1500s) or on the original Hebrew/Greek words that were used and how those are used in other parts of the bible. That's why I posted on Talk and not on the article. To gather more info from the experts before adding anything to the article itself. 2A02:8109:F3F:CAA4:0:0:0:97F8 (talk) 06:01, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240912060100","author":"2A02:8109:F3F:CAA4:0:0:0:97F8","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-2A02:8109:F3F:CAA4:0:0:0:97F8-20240912060100-Edit\/removal_on_Luther_Bible_Talk_on_09\/11\/24","replies":["c-Oknazevad-20240912064000-2A02:8109:F3F:CAA4:0:0:0:97F8-20240912060100"]}}-->

When I saw the comment it didn't read as being about the page contents. Sorry if I misread that. In the future it would help to be more specific about what you think should be added or changed in the article. Also, I do recommend registering a user name. oknazevad (talk) 06:40, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240912064000","author":"Oknazevad","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Oknazevad-20240912064000-2A02:8109:F3F:CAA4:0:0:0:97F8-20240912060100","replies":[]}}-->

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35 mm film

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Hello. Thank you for reverting my edit to the 35 mm film redirect page. There are a lot of problems here to be dealt with. The intended navigation was referring specifically to 35 mm movie film. The article which is employing the redirect for navigation, will need to be corrected to a direct link (WP:INTDAB). Currently, there are a lot of articles which are linking to the 35 mm disambiguation page through the redirect instead of the specific film type article they refer to. I just wanted to write to highlight the problem; I don't have the time to devote towards fixing it. — CJDOS, Sheridan, OR (talk) 22:01, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240929220100","author":"CJDOS","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-CJDOS-20240929220100-35_mm_film","replies":[],"displayName":"CJDOS,\u00a0Sheridan,\u00a0OR"}}-->

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Frontier League 2025 Divisions

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Hello,

In response to your reversion of my edit on the "Frontier League" page, the following link shows an updated map of teams for 2025. This map uses four separate colors, which are presumably the realigned divisions for 2025. I can understand wanting to wait until there is more information on them, but don't say I'm "making stuff up."

Frontier League Map - Frontier League StudiedPort5 (talk) 03:18, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241003031800","author":"StudiedPort5","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-StudiedPort5-20241003031800-Frontier_League_2025_Divisions","replies":["c-Oknazevad-20241003115500-StudiedPort5-20241003031800"]}}-->

My apologies. With no announcement of a new alignment anywhere on the website, i do think it's best to wait. oknazevad (talk) 11:55, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241003115500","author":"Oknazevad","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Oknazevad-20241003115500-StudiedPort5-20241003031800","replies":[]}}-->

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Tan sources

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On the Qwest Corporation article somebody said there may have been some "tan sources". Please clarify what are tan sources? Angela Kate Maureen Pears 15:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241029150700","author":"Tropical Storm Angela","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tropical_Storm_Angela-20241029150700-Tan_sources","replies":["c-Oknazevad-20241029190400-Tropical_Storm_Angela-20241029150700"],"displayName":"Angela Kate Maureen"}}-->

Fan sources. That it self-published, non-scholarly fan sites. The article as written had no basis anyway, as it was an incorrect of the page. The edits were sound and there was no reason to revert. oknazevad (talk) 19:04, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241029190400","author":"Oknazevad","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Oknazevad-20241029190400-Tropical_Storm_Angela-20241029150700","replies":[]}}-->

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Wikipedia:Civility

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This is a reminder as to Wikipedia:Civility due to you calling my edit, quote, "utterly stupid and inappropriate" on the page for Medieval Times. It is against Wikipedia's rules and policies to make inflammatory and hostile remarks about other editors' contributions (Wikipedia:Assume good faith). Please do not do this with future edits.

Also see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, which lists the normal protocol for starting discussions about a page's content. Obversa (talk) 02:42, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241111024200","author":"Obversa","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Obversa-20241111024200-Wikipedia:Civility","replies":["c-Oknazevad-20241111031000-Obversa-20241111024200","c-Oknazevad-20241111103600-Obversa-20241111024200"]}}-->

I was not uncivil in my revert. You keep insisting on adding inappropriate material unrelated to the topic of the article. It was removed months ago for a reason. You are edit warring to restore it despite it being not the subject of the article, exhibiting WP:OWN behavior. oknazevad (talk) 03:10, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241111031000","author":"Oknazevad","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Oknazevad-20241111031000-Obversa-20241111024200","replies":[]}}-->

Also, WP:DONTTEMPLATETHEREGULARS. I said what I said about it being a dumb addition because it's a dumb addition. oknazevad (talk) 10:36, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241111103600","author":"Oknazevad","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Oknazevad-20241111103600-Obversa-20241111024200","replies":["c-Danzig138-20241120070400-Oknazevad-20241111103600"]}}-->

Read the counter essay. And stop misquoting yourself. A regular should know these things. danzig138 (talk) 07:04, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241120070400","author":"Danzig138","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Danzig138-20241120070400-Oknazevad-20241111103600","replies":[]}}-->

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ArbCom 2024 Elections voter message

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Request for comment

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Please participate in Vote: Inclusion of inaugural/final champion in Championships and accomplishments. Regards. --Mann Mann (talk) 13:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241123133700","author":"Mann Mann","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Mann_Mann-20241123133700-Request_for_comment","replies":[]}}-->

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The Bell System Memorial Web site

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The Bell System Memorial website isn't even a fan source--really, it's the best piece of evidence right now Google, Bing and Yahoo can even generate. Furthermore, there is not proper enough evidence that would really show Northwestern Bell, the Mountain, Southern or South Central Bells may be actually deceased let alone defunct--the Qwest and BellSouth telecom networks, according to evidence and to those who work with these groups, are almost surely the ones either deceased or defunct. The company names Northwestern Bell, Mountain Bell, South Central Bell and Southern Bell may be no longer used but the namesake phone groups do still bear existence even today, as otherwise there would not be any web sites in name for them leading to either the new AT&T or CenturyLink websites' areas respectively. I don't mean when arguing with other Wikipedia editors but can whosoever on English Wikipedia please contact me so that an agreement and discussion would happen rather than change my edits back into the questionable forms which had existed earlier? Angela Kate Maureen Pears 16:15, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241130161500","author":"Tropical Storm Angela","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tropical_Storm_Angela-20241130161500-The_Bell_System_Memorial_Web_site","replies":["c-Oknazevad-20241130233000-Tropical_Storm_Angela-20241130161500"],"displayName":"Angela Kate Maureen"}}-->

Firstly, you're misreading the Bell System Memorial website. It does not say Northwestern Bell, Pacific Northwest Bell, or Mountain Bell were revived. Because they weren't.

The definitive source is the companies themselves, who are required to file with the FCC and state utilities authorities documents listing their tariffs, that is the services offered, the terms of service, and the fee schedules for each of their operating company subsidiaries. Those tariffs are publicly available legal documents and are found via the parent companies' websites. They also, notably, are listed by the companies' legal names, with the d/b/a trade names also included.

All the ex-Bell companies now under Verizon have been legally renamed "Verizon - [state name]", and some have been converted to LLCs. They have no separate d/b/a names.

The ones mentioned above that went to US West in the Bell breakup were formally merged in 1994, which was accomplished by merging Northwestern Bell and Pacific Northwest Bell into Mountain Bell, which was renamed US West Communications. After Qwest took over US West in 2000, the combined local operating company (which wasn't particularly local anymore) was again renamed Qwest Corporation. Even after CenturyLink took over Qwest, that remains its legal name, though it uses the d/b/a name CenturyLink QC sometimes, even after CenturyLink changed its name to Lumen Technologies four years ago, as the CenturyLink branding is still used for their local phone service. In other words it's been 30 years since the Mountain Bell, Northwestern Bell, and Pacific Northwest Bell names passed into history as names of actual operating companies (and since the latter two actually ceased to exist as legal entities). The only use since then is that US West/Qwest used to license the Northwestern Bell name to the company Unical to use as a brand on phones they made (SBC and BellSouth did similar).

The part that to me is most fascinating is that the Bell operating companies that are part of the modern AT&T haven't changed their legal names. Yeah, they all use AT&T [state] as trade names, but they're still legally named Ohio Bell, Michigan Bell, Indiana Bell, Illinois Bell, Wisconsin Bell, BellSouth, Southwestern Bell, Nevada Bell, and Pacific Bell. Again, this is confirmed by looking at the tariff filings for each company.

The only other US company still legally known by a Bell name is Cincinnati Bell, though they now use the AltaFiber branding publicly.

The only one actually using Bell as a public name is Bell Canada, which became a separate company decades ago. oknazevad (talk) 23:30, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241130233000","author":"Oknazevad","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Oknazevad-20241130233000-Tropical_Storm_Angela-20241130161500","replies":["c-Tropical_Storm_Angela-20241130235600-Oknazevad-20241130233000"]}}-->

Hey, thank you on helping me understand. And I think I might have misread the Bell System Memorial website over almost three years beginning in 2022. I'm sorry if I was mistaken, although I know my mother and six other people who work with the Lumen Technologies in the Des Moines area. Whomever told me different may have been unknowingly though not intentionally misleading me involving the said companies that merged three decades ago. Angela Kate Maureen Pears 23:56, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241130235600","author":"Tropical Storm Angela","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Tropical_Storm_Angela-20241130235600-Oknazevad-20241130233000","replies":["c-Oknazevad-20241201015900-Tropical_Storm_Angela-20241130235600"],"displayName":"Angela Kate Maureen"}}-->

It's possible. This is pretty obscure stuff even to the people who work at these companies. For the most part they just consider themselves employees of the parent company. Especially for details like this that really only matter to the legal department. oknazevad (talk) 01:59, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241201015900","author":"Oknazevad","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Oknazevad-20241201015900-Tropical_Storm_Angela-20241130235600","replies":[]}}-->

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Are vs. Is

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Are you able to provide guidance on when 'are' should be used to refer to a team versus when 'is' should be used (e.g. 'Miami Heat are a basketball team' or 'Miami Heat is a basketball team')?

Following up your reverts for the Columbus Crew and the LA Galaxy, I should let you know that I also changed the terms for the New England Revolution and the Philadelphia Union. So, should they be reverted too? Assadzadeh (talk) 18:26, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241219182600","author":"Assadzadeh","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Assadzadeh-20241219182600-Are_vs._Is","replies":["c-Oknazevad-20241219183900-Assadzadeh-20241219182600"]}}-->

Yes they should. American English is funny when it comes to sports teams. Typically collective nouns in American English uses singular verbs, in contrast to British usage. But since sports teams classically use plural nouns for the nickname portion of their name, plural verbs are generally used (the Los Angeles Dodgers are a baseball team, not "is"). This also applies when the nickname is used alone (the Bucks are the new NBA Cup champions), but not when using the geographic portion alone, that gets a singular verb (New Jersey plays at Prudential Center). The complication that's sprung up in the last couple of decades are teams whose nicknames aren't strictly plural, like the Miami Heat and Colorado Avalanche. We still use plural verbs for those. The MLS teams that use singular verbs are the ones with no nickname as part of the team name, like NYCFC. Even then, the use of singular verbs seems off for the Seattle Sounders just because they have an "FC" suffix. Consistency of using plural verbs for all of them just makes more sense, but it really should be decided on a case-by-case basis to reflect what the press consistently use (the US press because ENGVAR is a thing here). Big thing is to quickly read through the body of the article and make sure the first sentence is consistent with that. oknazevad (talk) 18:39, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241219183900","author":"Oknazevad","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Oknazevad-20241219183900-Assadzadeh-20241219182600","replies":[]}}-->

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Request for comment

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Please can I have your input on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thanksgiving Eve Dynamite (2023)? Thanks. Lemonademan22 (talk) 00:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223000400","author":"Lemonademan22","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Lemonademan22-20241223000400-Request_for_comment_2","replies":[]}}-->