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		Departure– has given you some cookies! Cookies promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. You can spread the "WikiLove" by giving someone else some cookies, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Thanks for closing that big move at WPW! Also, thanks for being so quick to notice that you accidentally moved the entire Wikiproject page itself - and for being so quick to fix it, these cookies are for you. Cheers! Departure– (talk) 16:17, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241215161700","author":"Departure\u2013","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Departure\u2013-20241215161700-Cookies!","replies":[]}}--> To spread the goodness of cookies, you can add {{subst:Cookies}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message, or eat this cookie on the giver's talk page with {{subst:munch}}!

Departure– (talk) 16:17, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241215161700","author":"Departure\u2013","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Departure\u2013-20241215161700-Cookies!-1","replies":[]}}-->

Hi! Sorry for the mass rollback, but I was worried someone would delete them all and put us in a situation that's kind of tedious to reverse. So, when you imported these pages to Wikibooks, you only imported the most recent revision. Currently, that meets the attribution requirements for CC BY-SA 4.0 because there's a link to the original enwiki page on each. But, if the enwiki page is deleted, that attribution is no longer valid, and now Wikibooks is violating copyrights. Is there a reason you can't import the full page history? -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|🤷) 07:00, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241219070000","author":"Tamzin","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tamzin-20241219070000-Transwiki_issue","replies":["c-JJPMaster-20241219111700-Tamzin-20241219070000","c-JJPMaster-20241219143900-Tamzin-20241219070000"]}}-->

@Tamzin: I'm working on this right now. There's currently a bug on enwikibooks where ticking the "Import as subpages of the following page" box doesn't work, and instead copies them to the Transwiki namespace. Since I'm in the equivalent of EggRoll97's situation (non-admin transwiki importer), I couldn't perform a history merge to fix the outcome of the mass importation, and have had to make a request on our version of AN. JJP_Master (she/they) 11:17, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241219111700","author":"JJPMaster","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-JJPMaster-20241219111700-Tamzin-20241219070000","replies":[],"displayName":"JJP"}}-->

@Tamzin: Thanks to the work of MarcGarver, this problem has now been resolved. The pages can be safely deleted. JJP_Master (she/they) 14:39, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241219143900","author":"JJPMaster","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-JJPMaster-20241219143900-Tamzin-20241219070000","replies":["c-Tamzin-20241219175900-JJPMaster-20241219143900"],"displayName":"JJP"}}-->

Should all be done now. First time using D-batch in ages so let me know if I broke the wiki. Note that Wikibooks pages usually aren't linked inline, so I've unbacklinked rather than interwiki-linking, but if there's a case where it's particularly useful, WP:MOSSIS isn't super-strict on it either, so as you will. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|🤷) 17:59, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241219175900","author":"Tamzin","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Tamzin-20241219175900-JJPMaster-20241219143900","replies":[]}}-->

Too many trans people amiright?

Sorry couldn't resist.

(This is a joke please no ArbCom.) -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|🤷) 18:00, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241219180000","author":"Tamzin","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tamzin-20241219180000-Trans_wiki_issue","replies":["c-JJPMaster-20241220155700-Tamzin-20241219180000"]}}-->

@Tamzin: I'm proud to be a trans²wiki importer on Wikibooks—that is, a transgender transwiki importer. JJP_Master (she/they) 15:57, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241220155700","author":"JJPMaster","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-JJPMaster-20241220155700-Tamzin-20241219180000","replies":[],"displayName":"JJP"}}-->

Hi Junie,

I'm new to Wikipedia as a contributor. Yesterday I created an article in my 'sandbox' titled 'United States Horoscope'. It's the first article I've ever edited or contributed. When I finished it, I hit the 'Publish' button.

What will happen now? --Ecfactman (talk) 22:28, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241220222800","author":"Ecfactman","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Ecfactman-20241220222800-Question_from_Ecfactman_(22:28,_20_December_2024)","replies":["c-JJPMaster-20241220225900-Ecfactman-20241220222800"]}}-->

@Ecfactman: Hi, and welcome to Wikipedia! When you pressed "Publish", it posted the content of your article to your sandbox. If you wish, you can use the Article wizard to submit it. However, I advise against doing this, as the article consists of original research and appears to presuppose the fringe theory of astrology. JJP_Master (she/they) 22:59, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241220225900","author":"JJPMaster","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-JJPMaster-20241220225900-Ecfactman-20241220222800","replies":["c-Ecfactman-20241221000400-JJPMaster-20241220225900"],"displayName":"JJP"}}-->

I advise against doing this, as the article consists of original research and appears to presuppose the fringe theory of astrology. JJPMaster (she/they) 22:59, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi Junie,

Thank you for your reply.

I would like to respond to each of your two objections.

1)

I don’t understand your proposition that the article is based upon ‘original research’ when there were 4 sources cited to support the fact that the United States legally came into being at 12:45 P.M. on June 21, 1788.

3 of them are official Government sources. The fourth is from the Boston University School of Law.

https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/ATR2WPX6L3UFLH8I/pages/AWW44LLLVHYOYT85?as=text (See left hand page, paragraph 2)

https://prologue.blogs.archives.gov/2013/06/21/the-real-constitution-day/ (see paragraph 7)

https://www.loc.gov/collections/continental-congress-and-constitutional-convention-from-1774-to-1789/articles-and-essays/timeline/1787-to-1788/ (see 1788 marker and grey box on right hand side of the page next to it)

https://www.loc.gov/collections/continental-congress-and-constitutional-convention-from-1774-to-1789/articles-and-essays/timeline/1787-to-1788/ (see final paragraph of the PDF document)

I understand the reasons for, respect, and wholly support Wikipedia’s rigorous standards for facts in support of arguments put forth in articles. That is precisely why I included the sources that I did.

If you actually went to the sources and reviewed them, I don’t see how you could possibly conclude they are erroneous. That would effectively be telling the US Government it doesn’t know the true facts about its own origins.

2)

To say that the article should be rejected because it deals with ‘the fringe theory of astrology’, I have 2 things to say in response.

One:

I did a Google search with the term: Wikipedia astrologers. Many Wikipedia articles having to do with Astrology came up in the search results. Here is just one example: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Astrologers)

So, obviously Wikipedia does not automatically reject an article merely because it deals with the subject of astrology. Neither do the Wikipedia articles I reviewed include a disclaimer or any type of caution message saying that ‘Astrology is a practice based upon ‘a fringe theory’.

Two:

More importantly, my article does not advocate for Astrology, it merely states that anyone who chooses to practice Astrology must be able to obtain reliably sourced accurate data upon which to do their calculations.

The whole point of the Article is to provide exactly that… reliably sourced accurate data regarding the true date, place, and time the United States of America began.

I’m trying to get a little known truth out there to counter the legally and factually false (and widespread) notion that the United States of America came into being on July 4, 1776. It did not.

Thank you for your time. In light of the above, I hope you will decide to remove your objections to the Article being published if I opt to do so. Ecfactman (talk) 00:04, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241221000400","author":"Ecfactman","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Ecfactman-20241221000400-JJPMaster-20241220225900","replies":["c-JJPMaster-20241221002000-Ecfactman-20241221000400","c-Ecfactman-20241221190900-Ecfactman-20241221000400"]}}-->

Firstly, the claim of original research is largely due to this section:

What happened on July 4, 1776 was that 13 rebellious British Colonies declared that they were going to break away from Britain and form a new nation.

The Declaration of Independence was NOT a legally binding document. It was merely a Declaration of Intent. The 13 rebellious colonies could have lost the war of rebellion (Revolutionary War). So, at best, the 'idea' of the United States came into being on July 4,1776, but not the actual nation.

The 'idea' is like a seed, a 'conception'. It is comparable, in human terms, of one's 'date of conception' - the date one's mother becomes pregnant. It is not the day/date one is physically born. In a biological pregnancy, lots of mishaps can happen between conception and the expected date of birth, mishaps which could disrupt or terminate the pregnancy. The same could be said about the period between the Declaration of Independence on July 4,1776 and Ratification of the US Constitution and the birth of the United States of America 12 years later on June 21,1788.

The sources you provide do not appear to support the idea that the Declaration of Independence didn't actually declare independence, or that countries are comparable to humans in terms of birth.

Second, articles about astrology are fine, otherwise, I wouldn't have linked astrology in my earlier message. But your article is not merely about astrology, it is asserting the truth of an astrological claim. On Wikipedia, astrology is generally considered pseudoscience, so we should not make claims that treat it as established fact, as your article appears to do. I advise that you post this on a subreddit such as r/AdvancedAstrology or a blog, since the article appears to be written for the sake of advocating a particular point of view rather than providing encyclopedic information. JJP_Master (she/they) 00:20, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241221002000","author":"JJPMaster","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-JJPMaster-20241221002000-Ecfactman-20241221000400","replies":["c-Ecfactman-20241221185400-JJPMaster-20241221002000"],"displayName":"JJP"}}-->

I did not claim "The Declaration of Independece 'didn't actually declare Independence.'

A declaration of Independence is NOT the same as the estblishment of a new nation under a legally binding Constitution.

Did you actually read the sources.

You are treating this as if I am presenting 'personal views and personal opinions' rather tuan historical fact.

I am willing to rewrite the article and limit the scope of it to the real, factual, legally verified date of the beginning of the United States of America using the same 4 sources I presented..

If you continue to deny the article thereafter, I will appeal your decision because it would mean you are challenging the validity of those sources.

It seems this is a subject you are not sufficiently knowledgeable about. Ecfactman (talk) 18:54, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241221185400","author":"Ecfactman","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Ecfactman-20241221185400-JJPMaster-20241221002000","replies":[]}}-->

I would also like to add that there cannot be 2 dates for the establishment of a new nation.

The date of the Declaration of Independence cannot be the date of the establishment and origin of the United States when, as the sources clearly state, ratification ofbthe Constitution on June 21, 1788, was.

As far as countries 'being equal to humans as far as birth', I have 2 things to say:

One, I used that example as an analogy, not a 'statement of equivalence'.

Two - there is a branch of Astrology which analyzes the 'natal' (a word Astrologersfor lack of a better word) of countries - so the analagous relationships between human births and those of countries was made long ago in that practice

That is why I used that terminology.

Again, I will state that I am willing to rewrite the article and limit it's scope to the fact of the date of the beginning of the United States. Ecfactman (talk) 19:09, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241221190900","author":"Ecfactman","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Ecfactman-20241221190900-Ecfactman-20241221000400","replies":["c-JJPMaster-20241221213300-Ecfactman-20241221190900"]}}-->

@Ecfactman: I will point out that Astro.com is not a reliable source. It is not peer-reviewed, and deals with fringe theories without providing "parity of sources":

The prominence of fringe views needs to be put in perspective relative to the views of the entire encompassing field; limiting that relative perspective to a restricted subset of specialists or only among the proponents of that view is, necessarily, biased and unrepresentative.

As for your suggestion to limit the scope of the article to the beginning of the United States, we already have an article for that. If you wish to incorporate your article's content, you can ask on the article's talk page, though I advise removing most of the astrological content first.

I also advise that you seek advice from other uninvolved editors as well, so I suggest you forward any further questions to the Help desk. JJP_Master (she/they) 21:33, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241221213300","author":"JJPMaster","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-JJPMaster-20241221213300-Ecfactman-20241221190900","replies":["c-Ecfactman-20241221230800-JJPMaster-20241221213300"],"displayName":"JJP"}}-->

Thank you. Ecfactman (talk) 23:08, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241221230800","author":"Ecfactman","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Ecfactman-20241221230800-JJPMaster-20241221213300","replies":[]}}-->

		The Articles for Creation Barnstar 2024 Top Editor
		In 2024 you were one of the top AfC editors, thank you! --Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 14:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241222143600","author":"Ozzie10aaaa","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Ozzie10aaaa-20241222143600-Top_AfC_Editor","replies":[]}}-->

Happy holidays!

Wishing you a Merry Christmas filled with love and joy, a Happy Holiday season surrounded by warmth and laughter, and a New Year brimming with hope, happiness, and success! 🎄🎉✨ Baqi:) (talk) 11:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241224110400","author":"Jannatulbaqi","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Jannatulbaqi-20241224110400-Happy_holidays!","replies":[],"displayName":"Baqi:)"}}-->

Hello JJPMaster: Enjoy the holiday season and winter solstice if it's occurring in your area of the world, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, Abishe (talk) 15:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241224150000","author":"Abishe","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Abishe-20241224150000-Happy_Holidays","replies":[]}}-->

Abishe (talk) 15:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241224150000","author":"Abishe","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Abishe-20241224150000-Happy_Holidays-1","replies":[]}}-->

Help me --MAUNG NAY PHYO (talk) 12:34, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241226123400","author":"MAUNG NAY PHYO","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-MAUNG_NAY_PHYO-20241226123400-Question_from_MAUNG_NAY_PHYO_on_Wikipedia_talk:Edit_filter\/False_positives_(12:3","replies":["c-JJPMaster-20241226143100-MAUNG_NAY_PHYO-20241226123400"]}}-->

@MAUNG NAY PHYO: Hi, and welcome to Wikipedia! It looks like you are trying to report a false positive with the edit filter, however it doesn’t look like you’ve tripped any filters lately. Could you please elaborate? JJP_Master (she/they) 14:31, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241226143100","author":"JJPMaster","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-JJPMaster-20241226143100-MAUNG_NAY_PHYO-20241226123400","replies":[],"displayName":"JJP"}}-->

Hello,

I resent that Milchan is characterized as someone who made his billions simply as a movie producer, when in reality he was set up in that business by the Israeli ultra-zionist government with millions, solely to spy on Americans. He has enlisted american citizens to spy on anyone who opposes Israel’s occupation of Palestine. He helped provide support for apartheid South Africa. Where is the whole truth? --BhooJoeT (talk) 18:02, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241228180200","author":"BhooJoeT","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-BhooJoeT-20241228180200-Question_from_BhooJoeT_on_Talk:Arnon_Milchan_(18:02,_28_December_2024)","replies":["c-JJPMaster-20241228185600-BhooJoeT-20241228180200"]}}-->

@BhooJoeT: Hi, and welcome to Wikipedia! If the things that you have stated are indeed true, then you can cite reliable sources and include those facts in the article. However, the particular wording that you're using here worries me that you might misunderstand the purpose of Wikipedia. It is not a place for righting great wrongs or correcting perceived injustices, or a place for advocacy. Unless what you're talking about is verifiable, it should not be included on Wikipedia. JJP_Master (she/they) 18:56, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241228185600","author":"JJPMaster","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-JJPMaster-20241228185600-BhooJoeT-20241228180200","replies":[],"displayName":"JJP"}}-->

Firstly, thanks your work of my draft, Draft:SM-A136B. I was unfamiliar with requesting new redirects at the time. Now I want to speedy delete my draft (since my redirect request has been accepted) by using Template:Db-g7 - but since you reviewed my draft, I think I need to ask you, may I? Saimmx (talk) 18:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241229181200","author":"Saimmx","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Saimmx-20241229181200-Speedy_delete_my_draft","replies":["c-JJPMaster-20241229181300-Saimmx-20241229181200","c-Tamzin-20241229181500-Saimmx-20241229181200"]}}-->

@Saimmx: Yep! I don’t even think you had to ask. JJP_Master (she/they) 18:13, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241229181300","author":"JJPMaster","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-JJPMaster-20241229181300-Saimmx-20241229181200","replies":[],"displayName":"JJP"}}-->

(talk page watcher) Yeah, a draft decline is not "substantial content" for the purposes of G7. I've deleted. :) -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|🤷) 18:15, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241229181500","author":"Tamzin","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Tamzin-20241229181500-Saimmx-20241229181200","replies":["c-JJPMaster-20241229181600-Tamzin-20241229181500","c-Saimmx-20241229181900-Tamzin-20241229181500"]}}-->

@Tamzin: Wait, you’re saying I actually have TPS now? JJP_Master (she/they) 18:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241229181600","author":"JJPMaster","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-JJPMaster-20241229181600-Tamzin-20241229181500","replies":["c-Tamzin-20241229182000-JJPMaster-20241229181600"],"displayName":"JJP"}}-->

Doing some guesswork from the super-secret admin-only pagewatcher stats and common watchlisting settings, you have ~1 TPS (me, until I get bored of watchlisting it someday and unwatch). -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|🤷) 18:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241229182000","author":"Tamzin","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Tamzin-20241229182000-JJPMaster-20241229181600","replies":["c-JJPMaster-20241229182100-Tamzin-20241229182000"]}}-->

Well, that is a nonzero amount. JJP_Master (she/they) 18:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241229182100","author":"JJPMaster","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-JJPMaster-20241229182100-Tamzin-20241229182000","replies":[],"displayName":"JJP"}}-->

Thanks your explain. The word "substantial" confused me. Saimmx (talk) 18:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241229181900","author":"Saimmx","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Saimmx-20241229181900-Tamzin-20241229181500","replies":["c-Tamzin-20241229182400-Saimmx-20241229181900"]}}-->

Basically "substantial" there means, contributing any nontrivial effort to the state of the page. So it excludes, say, simple copy-edits, vandalism reverts, technical fixes, things like that. A draft decline is kind of a special case, because even though it's on the article, it's really more metadata about the state of the article. (And for a bit of a wiki-history lesson, the only reason it is on the article instead of the talkpage is because drafts used to all be in talkspace, so there was nowhere else to put comments.) So yeah, it's not substantial content, any more than a talkpage comment is. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|🤷) 18:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241229182400","author":"Tamzin","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Tamzin-20241229182400-Saimmx-20241229181900","replies":[]}}-->