Great to see someone working on those Schenker articles. Thank you! Tony (talk) 10:25, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-01-10T10:25:00.000Z","author":"Tony1","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tony1-2013-01-10T10:25:00.000Z-Schenker","replies":[],"displayName":"Tony"}}-->

I think the guy is crazy because he's unable to respond to messages, only repeat his own issues. I don't intend to respond to him. He clearly can not work within Wikipedia's guidelines. -- kosboot (talk) 21:53, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-02T21:53:00.000Z","author":"Kosboot","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kosboot-2013-10-02T21:53:00.000Z-You_know_who","replies":["c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2013-10-03T08:21:00.000Z-Kosboot-2013-10-02T21:53:00.000Z"]}}-->

Yes. We would need Dr. Emma Sculate (formerly of TIT, the Texas Institute of Theory, http://web.archive.org/web/19990127234125/ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~bogo/tit/home.html) to solve the case, but I think she retired quite some time ago. -- Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 08:21, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-03T08:21:00.000Z","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2013-10-03T08:21:00.000Z-Kosboot-2013-10-02T21:53:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Schenkerian analysis you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Tim riley -- Tim riley (talk) 14:00, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-09T14:00:00.000Z","author":"Tim riley","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tim_riley-2013-11-09T14:00:00.000Z-Your_GA_nomination_of_Schenkerian_analysis","replies":[],"displayName":"Tim\u00a0riley"}}-->

The article Schenkerian analysis you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold . I have left my comments at the review page, Talk:Schenkerian analysis/GA1. There are other matters that may need looking at, but the matter I have raised is the most pressing, and the week's deadline is for that to be done. Tim riley (talk) 16:59, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-09T16:59:00.000Z","author":"Tim riley","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tim_riley-2013-11-09T16:59:00.000Z-Your_GA_nomination_of_Schenkerian_analysis_2","replies":["c-Tim_riley-2013-11-14T10:19:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2013-11-09T16:59:00.000Z"]}}-->

As you will see from the nomination page, I have failed the nomination on this occasion. I repeat here what I said there: I hope you will continue to contribute to Wikipedia despite your reservations about our citation criteria. You have a great deal to offer Wikipedia, and we should be the poorer without your contributions. Best wishes, Tim riley (talk) 10:19, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-14T10:19:00.000Z","author":"Tim riley","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Tim_riley-2013-11-14T10:19:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2013-11-09T16:59:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

The article Schenkerian analysis you nominated as a good article has failed ; see Talk:Schenkerian analysis for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of the article. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Tim riley -- Tim riley (talk) 10:22, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-11-14T10:22:00.000Z","author":"Tim riley","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tim_riley-2013-11-14T10:22:00.000Z-Your_GA_nomination_of_Schenkerian_analysis_3","replies":[],"displayName":"Tim\u00a0riley"}}-->

Hi Hucbald.SaintAmand. In the edit summary for this edit, in what sense is that source "not public domain"? It loads just fine. Is it a copyright violation? --Stfg (talk) 14:52, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2014-02-25T14:52:00.000Z","author":"Stfg","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Stfg-2014-02-25T14:52:00.000Z-Not_public_domain?","replies":["c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2014-02-26T10:00:00.000Z-Stfg-2014-02-25T14:52:00.000Z"]}}-->

Well, the situation of this document is not clear. The contents may be considered public domain, while this particular formatting is property of the French CNED (Centre National d'Enseignement à Distance). The authors deposited it there for colleagues and friends, but it shouldn't be widely advertised. In addition, it will be removed soon, to be replaced by a version that will not reproduce the CNED formatting. Earlier versions also exist on the same website, and these can be read freely. If you have read the document, fine; if you want to download it, do so without delay, or wait for the new version. Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 10:00, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2014-02-26T10:00:00.000Z","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2014-02-26T10:00:00.000Z-Stfg-2014-02-25T14:52:00.000Z","replies":["c-Stfg-2014-02-26T11:14:00.000Z-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2014-02-26T10:00:00.000Z"]}}-->

I'll defer to you on that. Having no citation there makes that paragraph look like original research, thus vulnerable to deletion. Will there be any objection to citing the new version when it appears? If not, we could restore the existing citation for now (or just wait, if the change is imminent), and simply amend the citation when the new version comes up. It's up to you, I think. --Stfg (talk) 11:14, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2014-02-26T11:14:00.000Z","author":"Stfg","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Stfg-2014-02-26T11:14:00.000Z-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2014-02-26T10:00:00.000Z","replies":["c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2014-02-26T12:14:00.000Z-Stfg-2014-02-26T11:14:00.000Z"]}}-->

The example was already given in an earlier version of the text, to which the wikipedia article now refers. I should have thought of that from the start... [By the way, is it enough that something exists on Internet in order not to appear as original research?] Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 12:14, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2014-02-26T12:14:00.000Z","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2014-02-26T12:14:00.000Z-Stfg-2014-02-26T11:14:00.000Z","replies":["c-Stfg-2014-02-26T13:48:00.000Z-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2014-02-26T12:14:00.000Z"]}}-->

It's not even necessary for something to be on the Internet: books and journals only available offline are equally fine. But they do need to be explicitly cited. The key words near the start of Wikipedia:Verifiability are "people reading and editing the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source" (my italics). Thanks for restoring the reference, as you did just now. --Stfg (talk) 13:48, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2014-02-26T13:48:00.000Z","author":"Stfg","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Stfg-2014-02-26T13:48:00.000Z-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2014-02-26T12:14:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Hi, nice work on the Schenker set of articles (although too much repetition, I think).

I wonder whether you conduct Schenkerian analysis? Tony (talk) 12:20, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-07-05T12:20:00.000Z","author":"Tony1","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tony1-2015-07-05T12:20:00.000Z-Schenker_2","replies":["c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2015-07-06T05:45:00.000Z-Tony1-2015-07-05T12:20:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Tony"}}-->

Yes, I do conduct Schenkerian analyses. What do you mean by "too much repetition": can you be more specific? Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 05:45, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-07-06T05:45:00.000Z","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2015-07-06T05:45:00.000Z-Tony1-2015-07-05T12:20:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

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Hi,

I am referring to the failed reference: Cariani and Micheyl 2012, 351–90 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFCariani_and_Micheyl2012 (help)^{[failed verification]}) where I wrote: "Spatial location (see Sound localization) represents the cognitive placement of a sound in an environmental context; including the placement of a sound on both the horizontal and vertical plane, the distance to the sound source and the characteristics of the sonic environment (reverberation)".

Cariani and Micheyl refer several times to "location" as a cognintive property of sound and I found a quote which I believe reflects the intent of my statement: "Location here includes several spatial qualities of sounds that include the apparent direction, extent, and range of the sound image in auditory space." (p.357) Cariani, P., & Micheyl, C. (2012). Toward a theory of information processing in auditory cortex The Human Auditory Cortex (pp. 351-390): Springer.

Their use of: "apparent direction" relates to my reference to "the placement of a sound on both the horizontal and vertical plane" (which uses two different cognitive process, which I haven't cited because I didn't think it necessary) and the "extent, and range of the sound image" is judged primarily by reverberation (I would also have to chase up references for this if needed).

I understand that you found the actual referencing inappropriate (the book is called "The Human Auditory Cortex" - I have the EBook in my EndNote program. I would be very appreciative if you could fix the formatting issues for me or let me know how I can do it myself (so I know for next time).

I will have to borrow the book containing the Levitin chapter and recheck the reference. Is it possible to give some more specific guidance as to the problem? Levitin divides location into two different areas: spatial location and reverberant environment, but he mentions both and I thought the Cariani and Micheyl source (which links them) would cover that issue. Levitin (from memory) was far more detailed on the cognitive processes involved I believe. below is a quote that I noted but failed to record the page number:

"A performance of music contains the following perceptual attributes: pitch, rhythm, tempo, contour, timbre, loudness, and spatial location (one might add reverberant environment as an eighth)." Levitin, D. J. (1999). Memory for musical attributes. In P. R. Cook (Ed.), Music, cognition, and computerized sound: An introduction to psychoacoustsics (pp. 105 - 127). Cambridge, Massachusetts: The MIT press. (page unknown)

I can also probably find more specific sources if you feel it necessary.

Regards, Rburtonresearch (talk) 12:13, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-02-03T12:13:00.000Z","author":"Rburtonresearch","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Rburtonresearch-2016-02-03T12:13:00.000Z-failed_reference_in_Univeral_\"Aspects_of_music\"","replies":[]}}-->

Message copied to Talk:Aspect_of_music, where I'll answer it. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 13:08, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-02-03T13:08:00.000Z","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2016-02-03T13:08:00.000Z-failed_reference_in_Univeral_\"Aspects_of_music\"","replies":[]}}-->

Hi, and thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you tried to give Aspect of music a different title by copying its content and pasting either the same content, or an edited version of it, into another page with a different name. This is known as a "cut-and-paste move", and it is undesirable because it splits the page history, which is legally required for attribution. Instead, the software used by Wikipedia has a feature that allows pages to be moved to a new title together with their edit history.

In most cases, once your account is four days old and has ten edits, you should be able to move an article yourself using the "Move" tab at the top of the page (the tab may be hidden in a dropdown menu for you). This both preserves the page history intact and automatically creates a redirect from the old title to the new. If you cannot perform a particular page move yourself this way (e.g. because a page already exists at the target title), please follow the instructions at requested moves to have it moved by someone else. Also, if there are any other pages that you moved by copying and pasting, even if it was a long time ago, please list them at Wikipedia:Requests for history merge. Thank you. – Fayenatic London 15:15, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-06-24T15:15:00.000Z","author":"Fayenatic london","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Fayenatic_london-2016-06-24T15:15:00.000Z-Copy-and-paste_move","replies":["c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2016-06-24T21:35:00.000Z-Fayenatic_london-2016-06-24T15:15:00.000Z","c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2016-06-24T21:40:00.000Z-Fayenatic_london-2016-06-24T15:15:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Fayenatic"}}-->

Fayenatic, you are perfectly right. The move has been discussed at length in the talk page of Aspect of music, with Wikipedia administrators participating in the discussion, but nobody really deciding, so I decided to plunge. I could not merely have moved the article to Elements of music, I think, because this article already existed (as a redirection to the first). On the other hand, I do not regret having done it: everybody caring seems satisfied and the interest for the article appears to have been renewed. I am aware of the problem so created, and I hope somebody (you?) will be able to solve it. I can only say that I will proceed otherwise if another case arises. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 21:35, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-06-24T21:35:00.000Z","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2016-06-24T21:35:00.000Z-Fayenatic_london-2016-06-24T15:15:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

I realize that I answered the above without being aware that you had already solved the problem: many thanks. The fact is that I am more interested in contributing content than in mastering the technicalities of Wikipedia... I'll do my best in the future. Thans again. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 21:40, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-06-24T21:40:00.000Z","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2016-06-24T21:40:00.000Z-Fayenatic_london-2016-06-24T15:15:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

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discussing music theory

Thank you for quality improvements of articles on music theory (commented), such as diatonic scale, Klangfarbenmelodie and Schenkerian analysis, for exquisit edit summaries, for teaching the intricacies of French and other titles, - "occasional contributor", you are an awesome Wikipedian!

On Debussy's birthday --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:56, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2018-08-22T07:56:00.000Z","author":"Gerda Arendt","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Gerda_Arendt-2018-08-22T07:56:00.000Z-Precious","replies":[]}}-->

A year ago, you were recipient no. 2006 of Precious, a prize of QAI! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:01, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2019-08-22T06:01:00.000Z","author":"Gerda Arendt","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Gerda_Arendt-2019-08-22T06:01:00.000Z-Precious","replies":[]}}-->

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Good afternoon, Monsieur Hucbald. Your comments on capitalisation on the Berlioz talk page were so instructive and enjoyable that I feel emboldened to ask you for two further pieces of advice on French usage. Neither has anything to do with my Wikipedia activities, and if you think this an inappropriate place to raise them I shall perfectly understand and will withdraw forthwith. But I have long wanted to know why some places where I lunch when I'm in Paris call themselves bistros and others call themselves bistrots. Is there a difference? I can find nothing online or in print to explain. And the second point, if you will indulge me further, is the "de" in some people's surnames. I struggle to work out why, e.g. Guy de Maupassant and Michel de Montaigne are always referred to as "Maupassant" and "Montaigne" and are indexed under M but e.g. Charles de Gaulle and Simone de Beauvoir are referred to as "de Gaulle" and "de Beauvoir" and indexed under D. If you have time and inclination to enlighten a puzzled Anglo-Saxon it will be esteemed a favour. Best wishes, Tim riley talk 16:55, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2019-07-22T16:55:00.000Z","author":"Tim riley","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tim_riley-2019-07-22T16:55:00.000Z-French_usage","replies":["c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2019-07-22T20:45:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2019-07-22T16:55:00.000Z"]}}-->

With pleasure, Tim riley. About bistro/bistrot, I had at first no answer, so I turned to the Trésor de la langue française, probably the authority of all matters of French language. As you may read in this page, the two versions are somehow synonymous. Bistro (1884) seems the more ancient of the two, and Bistrot (1892) may have been construed to allow Bistrote, when the word refers to the patron of your favorite café: bistrot if he is a man, bistrote if she is a woman.

As to names with de, these often are names of the nobility, where de is the name of a place – much like von in German, I think; de means "from". This must be the case of many medieval toponymes, where it is difficult to determine whether the place is named from its owner, or the reverse. In any case, without the surname, de would hardly be needed. These names were turned into family names, but remain characterized by the fact that the d in de is lower case. This usage must be distinguished from that, say, in Dutch, where De merely means "the" – "De Jonge", for instance, meaning merely "the young one". Today, it is difficult to determine whether the lower case "d" in de is a matter of nobility or one of modern usage. There seems to be no proof, for instance, that Charles de Gaulle's family was of noble origin; on the contrary, his name may be of Dutch origin. Nevertheless, his ancestors have used the lower case "de" since at least the 18th century.

In the case of nobility names, de is unneeded as soon as the Christian name is not used. One would not have adressed Louis XIV as "France", I suppose, even if his name was Louis de France; but one may have said "Nemours" when adressing the Duke of Nemours, for instance. I presume that one does something similar in English when adressing, say, the Duke of Windsor. The fact that the names Simone de Beauvoir or Charles de Gaulle are indexed under "De" probably reflects that they are not considered of noble origin, while Maupassant or Montaigne are (rightly or not). This being said, I cannot stand reading in bibliographical lists entries such as

• Arezzo, Guido d', Micrologus
• Saint-Amand, Hucbald de, Musica

nor, as a matter of fact,

• d'Arezzo, Guido
• de Saint-Amand, Hucbald

as if these were family names!

Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 20:45, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2019-07-22T20:45:00.000Z","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2019-07-22T20:45:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2019-07-22T16:55:00.000Z","replies":["c-Tim_riley-2019-07-22T21:18:00.000Z-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2019-07-22T20:45:00.000Z"]}}-->

Thank you so much. I couldn't ask for a more comprehensive explanation. I am very much obliged. I reciprocate with a tiny bit of amateur sociological observation: in Paris, it seems to me, downmarket outlets will sell you "sandwichs" and more upmarket ones offer "sandwiches". I don't buy either, preferring the offerings at bistro(t)s. – Tim riley talk 21:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2019-07-22T21:18:00.000Z","author":"Tim riley","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Tim_riley-2019-07-22T21:18:00.000Z-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2019-07-22T20:45:00.000Z","replies":["c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2019-07-23T06:40:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2019-07-22T21:18:00.000Z"]}}-->

This reminds me of an examination in a Conservatoire, where a girl annonced that she would sing a Lied – she pronounced Li–èd, very much à la française. She sang, and a jury member said Merci, mademoiselle, vous avez chanté comme un pi–èd (comme un pied). The plural of Lied is either Lieder, if you consider it a German word, or lieds, if you consider it integrated in the French language; idem for the plural of sandwich.

Do you think that the Earl of Sandwich would have been called "Sandwich" by his friends? — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 06:40, 23 July 2019 (UTC);[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2019-07-23T06:40:00.000Z","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2019-07-23T06:40:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2019-07-22T21:18:00.000Z","replies":["c-Tim_riley-2019-07-26T08:23:00.000Z-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2019-07-23T06:40:00.000Z"]}}-->

I think so, by his less intimate friends, at least; his closest friends would have used his given name or (knowing the English upper classes) his nickname, if he had one. I shall be purloining and retelling that excellent Conservatoire story. Many thanks! Tim riley talk 08:23, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2019-07-26T08:23:00.000Z","author":"Tim riley","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Tim_riley-2019-07-26T08:23:00.000Z-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2019-07-23T06:40:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

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Following on from WT:WikiProject Classical music#Capitalisation and Talk:Société nationale de musique#Capitalisation, a memory had been nagging at me. I've remembered why - Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 20#Annam Tower. Regardless of whether my argument there was or was not correct, 'The French description says "la tour de l'Annam" – it isn't capitalized, implying it's just a generic Annam tower, not a specific tower called "Annam Tower"' struck me as just plain wrong. Yrs, Narky Blert (talk) 18:56, 14 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-05-14T18:56:00.000Z","author":"Narky Blert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Narky_Blert-2021-05-14T18:56:00.000Z-French_capitalisation","replies":["c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2021-05-15T12:00:00.000Z-Narky_Blert-2021-05-14T18:56:00.000Z"]}}-->

@Narky Blert No, it merely implies that the Annam tower is (or was) a tower among others. It is not a generic Annam tower, merely a generic tower. Similarly, la mer Morte merely implies that this sea is one among many, but not that it has nothing particular. The usage is a bit strange, but that's how it is. Consider also that the English usage transforms descriptions into proper names, which could also seem strange. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 12:00, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-05-15T12:00:00.000Z","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2021-05-15T12:00:00.000Z-Narky_Blert-2021-05-14T18:56:00.000Z","replies":["c-Narky_Blert-2021-05-15T12:50:00.000Z-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2021-05-15T12:00:00.000Z"]}}-->

One of the oddest features of English is that it capitalises adjectives derived from countries (as I just did). I don't know another language which does. Narky Blert (talk) 12:50, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-05-15T12:50:00.000Z","author":"Narky Blert","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Narky_Blert-2021-05-15T12:50:00.000Z-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2021-05-15T12:00:00.000Z","replies":["c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2021-06-14T11:33:00.000Z-Narky_Blert-2021-05-15T12:50:00.000Z"]}}-->

Narky Blert, I think that French does something similar. One would write Les Français parlent le français where the substantived adjective is capitalized when it denotes people, and not when it denotes the language. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 11:33, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-06-14T11:33:00.000Z","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2021-06-14T11:33:00.000Z-Narky_Blert-2021-05-15T12:50:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

		The Barnstar of High Culture
		Pour l’ensemble de votre travail sur Wikipédia. —Cote d'Azur (talk) 07:39, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-08-26T07:39:00.000Z","author":"Cote d'Azur","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Cote_d'Azur-2021-08-26T07:39:00.000Z-Barnstar","replies":[]}}-->

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May I again impose on you for a steer in idiomatic French usage? Your thoughts on the penultimate bullet point here would be greatly appreciated, if you have time and inclination. Tim riley talk 17:19, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2022-04-24T17:19:00.000Z","author":"Tim riley","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tim_riley-2022-04-24T17:19:00.000Z-\"Frappez,_frappez_toujours\"","replies":["c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2022-04-24T20:17:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2022-04-24T17:19:00.000Z"]}}-->

The French words indeed are ambiguous, they litterally mean "Hit, keep hitting", but this may be taken metaphorically. (In English also, I presume, "to hit" may be with the fist or with words...) But I see that the French quotation comes from a Dutch site, where one reads Die strijdkracht bleek ook wel uit een bekend citaat van haar: 'Frappez frappez toujours'. Blijven herhalen totdat de boodschap is aangekomen. I happen to have some knowledge of Dutch as well: the French quotation is followed by an explanatory translation. The whole sentence literally says: "The combative force appeared also in a well-known quotation of hers : 'Frappez frappez toujours'. Keep repeating until the communication is arrived." So this, because of "the communication" (de boodschap), obviously refers to "hitting with words," i.e. metaphorically. I let you figure out how to best express that in English.

I did not know of Corry Tendeloo, but I found the article as a whole quite interesting. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 20:17, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2022-04-24T20:17:00.000Z","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2022-04-24T20:17:00.000Z-Tim_riley-2022-04-24T17:19:00.000Z","replies":["c-Tim_riley-2022-04-25T00:10:00.000Z-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2022-04-24T20:17:00.000Z"]}}-->

Once again, my thanks for your helpful advice. Tim riley talk 00:10, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2022-04-25T00:10:00.000Z","author":"Tim riley","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Tim_riley-2022-04-25T00:10:00.000Z-Hucbald.SaintAmand-2022-04-24T20:17:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

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Precious

Five years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:06, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230822060600","author":"Gerda Arendt","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Gerda_Arendt-20230822060600-Precious_anniversary","replies":[]}}-->

November songs

my story today

Today: in memoriam Jerome Kohl who said (In Freundschaft): "and I hope that they have met again in the beyond and are making joyous music together" --

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Hello, I wrote based on [1] that Jean Molino was dead based on what you said here : [2], which is non-encyclopedical. Can you help me find a reference on this? Nucleos (talk) 05:30, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240712053000","author":"Nucleos","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Nucleos-20240712053000-Jean_Molino","replies":["c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20240712083700-Nucleos-20240712053000"]}}-->

Jean Molino's death was announced by Jean-Jacques Nattiez on the musiSorbonne discussion list on 25 May, which may not really count as a reference. The archives of the list are available to members only. I made a search on Google but remained unable to find a confirmation. Nattiez of course can be trusted. He wrote on musiSorbonne that he would later publish a more detailed portrait of Molino. I'll tell you as soon as this happens. (La même chose en français ;–)) Best, Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 08:37, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240712083700","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20240712083700-Nucleos-20240712053000","replies":[]}}-->

Precious

Six years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:16, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240822081600","author":"Gerda Arendt","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Gerda_Arendt-20240822081600-Precious_anniversary_2","replies":[]}}-->

A lot of people look at the page - https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=latest-30&pages=Semiotics - I knew people of people in academic circles (now dead or retired) who used to have a good handle on the understanding and explanation, however my take is that the processes and components are valid parts of the system, and that commentary such as you found, is of no help to anyone, thanks for removing! JarrahTree 01:01, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241024010100","author":"JarrahTree","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-JarrahTree-20241024010100-Interesting","replies":[]}}-->

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Hey, really grateful you helped me find the page circle of thirds. I was really worried I would have to waist a bunch of time figuring out how I could find and/or highlight a couple of my personal findings on what turned out to be the circle of thirds. I totally agree with WP policy on no original ideas to prevent the site from getting bombarded with random ideas from the world. I think the talk page does a good job of helping volunteers filter their enthusiasm when attempting to add things to wikipedia because I feel part of what fuels wikipedia participation is the thought of being the first person to add a piece of useful information to the site that was missing. I'm a software developer and honestly do not have any interest in writing a paper on a music theory topic so a discovery can get published in a journal to earn the credentials needed to create a new page on WP. I'm totally content with just getting my account recorded in the edit history of additions I make on WP. I'm only continuing the discussion on if the circle of thirds deserves a section on the circle of fifths page here because I still feel the circle of thirds page should get more than a "see also" mention on the circle of fifths page. I also think exploring the connection with the number seven, the diatonic scale (7 notes) and splitting an octave into 12 semitones is worth keeping tabs on. There are signs all over the place in the 3-4-3-4... sequence that a proof exists to tie all three together. The 3-4 sequence also exists in the diatonic scale in the context of the placement of the half step (e.g. in a Major scale WWHWWWH). Just food for thought, I'm not going to lose any sleep over trying to find this proof! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bsenim (talk • contribs) 20:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241221201800","author":"Bsenim","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Bsenim-20241221201800-circle_of_thirds","replies":["c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241221214800-Bsenim-20241221201800","c-Bsenim-20241222160700-Bsenim-20241221201800","c-Bsenim-20241222161800-Bsenim-20241221201800","c-Bsenim-20241223110800-Bsenim-20241221201800"]}}-->

Hi, @Bsenim. Since you say that you are a software developer, I feel compelled to say that I, on the contrary, am (or rather was) a professional music theorist and that my writing under a pseudonym is rather meant to hide myself, as it allows us to discuss together on par level – which I like.

[I am not sure that you will be warned of my answer, as long as you don't have your own WP page (see here): you should create it.]

Note that I began using a personal computer in the early 1980's and that I built my first one myself – it could do only one thing, display "Hello," but displaying that on a hand calculator display of that time, sweeping across it at a speed that made you see it as unmoving, required quite some programming ;–)). I then decide to buy one, my first one with 4ko memory. It really was prehistory...

To turn back to our discussion, the circle of fifths, for me, basically is one of roots (fundamentals of chords), not one of chords. I have some difficulty therefore (also because I am quite busy just now with other things) to figure out why and how you link the circle of fifths with 7th chords. This, somehow, is grafting a set of thirds (chords are piles of thirds) on a circle of fifths. Also, 7th chords are not necessarily made of 4–3–4 (or 3–4–3) pilings. I'll have to further thing of all that (which I like, I hate to be thinking of only one thing at a time – it is helpful when I have other things to do, but it slows down the whole).

Lets keep in touch, I'll come back with other ideas.

PS. I just saw the discussion on your (non-existing!) own page, [3]. I think it raises the (implicit?) question here above, whether the circle of fifths is a circle of roots or of chords. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 21:48, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241221214800","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241221214800-Bsenim-20241221201800","replies":["c-Bsenim-20241222023600-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241221214800"]}}-->

Looking forward to any additions you think of, thanks again for the help finding the circle of thirds page! Bsenim (talk) 02:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241222023600","author":"Bsenim","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Bsenim-20241222023600-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241221214800","replies":[]}}-->

I think I have a way to describe the connection between the circle of thirds and the diatonic scale. Every note on the circle of thirds that is a root to a minor triad (or minor 7th chord) is the beginning of an 8 notes sequence that bookends a diatonic octave. The number 8 and octave now has a new meaning to me. I personally never thought deeply about the significance of the closure of a diatonic scale on the root note being tied to the number 8 until I realized 24 is divisible by 8. The circle of thirds is made up of 12 diatonic closures of 8 notes. The jump sequence of 15263748 maps out a diatonic scale with 1 and 8 being the bookends of a Dorian scale. Kind of funny how I have a great appreciation for the term "closure" from programming and I get to use the term properly here. The number 7 ties nicely into the circle of thirds now! Bsenim (talk) 16:07, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241222160700","author":"Bsenim","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Bsenim-20241222160700-Bsenim-20241221201800","replies":[]}}-->

Being an amateur jazz musician, I have to admit I'm happy to see the Dorian scale get a little more prominence over the Ionian scale! Bsenim (talk) 16:18, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241222161800","author":"Bsenim","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Bsenim-20241222161800-Bsenim-20241221201800","replies":[]}}-->

I found the link between the circle of thirds and the circle of fifths. It's a 48 note cycle of modular arithmetic (modulo 12) contained in the 15263748 jump sequence in the circle of thirds.

C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, E, G♭, A♭, B♭, B, D♭, E♭, F, G♭, A♭, B♭, C, D♭, E♭, F, G, A♭, B♭, C, D, E♭, F, G, A, B♭

The easiest way to describe it is to say it's a "cycle of 48 notes of the first four notes of major scales in fifths order."

I added a talk section to the circle of fifths page. Bsenim (talk) 11:08, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223110800","author":"Bsenim","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Bsenim-20241223110800-Bsenim-20241221201800","replies":["c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241223175800-Bsenim-20241223110800"]}}-->

There are many mathematical properties to deduce from the relation between the circles of fifths and of thirds, the diatonic and the chromatic scales, etc. But they make sense only if they have some utility in music and, in this case, I don't see any... I don't think you should add anything about that, unless you can find an existing publication about it. Otherwise, it certainly would count as original research – even if you consider it mainly an evidence.

Your 48 note cycle could be described as a concatenation of major scales on C, D, E, F♯=G♭, G♭, A♭ and B♭ (or of Dorian modes, starting from the second note, D, and adding a C at the end for the last Dorian mode on C; or of Phrygian mode...; etc). But, once again, what is the musical utility? The circle of fifths is linked to key signatures (adding one sharp in the signature corresponding to one step up in the circle, one flat to one step down); the circle of thirds is less useful; and the 48 note cycle ...? — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 17:58, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223175800","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241223175800-Bsenim-20241223110800","replies":["c-Bsenim-20241223210100-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241223175800"]}}-->

Good question on how the 48 note cycle can be useful. If you look closely at the grouping of associated modes for each Major [1, 4] group along this 48 note cycle, you will see that the first three modes in a Major group are modes with closure. The 4th mode in the group does not have closure because the 8th note is raised a half step. When you say the circle of fifths adds flats when going counter clockwise, it might be more correct to say that all the flatted notes that exist in Gb Major are sharped/naturalized one by one when moving clockwise around the circle. I say this because when you move around the 48 note cycle in the area of the Major scales that have flatted notes, the flatted notes are systematically returned to their natural pitch on the 8th step of the 4th mode.

Starting with Ab Major:

Ab Major - AbBbCDbEbFG

Bb Dorian - BbCDbEbFGAb

C Phrygian - CDEbFGAbBb

Db Lydian - DbEbFGAbBbC

Ab Major, Bb Dorian, C Phrygian all have closure on their root note. Db Lydian does not have closure and the 8th note is returned to its natural pitch.

Eb Major - EbFGAbBbCD

F Dorian - FGAbBbCDEb

G Phrygian - GAbBbCDEbF

Ab Lydian - AbBbCDEbFG

Eb Major, F Dorian, G Phrygian all have closure on their root note. Ab Lydian does not have closure and the 8th note is returned to its natural pitch.

The right side of the circle raises the 8th note of the closure of the 4th mode a half step.

C Major - CDEFGAB

D Dorian - DEFGABC

E Phrygian - EFGABCD

F Lydian - FGABCDE

C Major, D Dorian, E Phrygian all have closure on their root note. F Lydian does not have closure and the 8th note is raised a half step.

G Major - GABCDEF#

A Dorian - ABCDEF#G

B Phrygian - BCDEF#GA

C Lydian - CDEF#GAB

G Major, A Dorian, B Phrygian all have closure on their root note. C Lydian does not have closure and the 8th note is raised a half step.

The same is true in the messy portion of the circle of fifths where major scales have two names like F#/Gb, B/Cb and Db/C#.

Gb Major - GbAbBbBDbEbF

Ab Dorian - AbBbBDbEbFGb

Bb Phrygian - BbBDbEbFGbAb

B Lydian - BDbEbFGbAbBb

Gb Major, Ab Dorian, Bb Phrygian all have closure on their root note. B Lydian does not have closure and the 8th note is raised to C. Bsenim (talk) 21:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223210100","author":"Bsenim","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Bsenim-20241223210100-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241223175800","replies":["c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241223214600-Bsenim-20241223210100"]}}-->

Yes, this once again is a nice mathematical construction on the diatonic/chromatic system.

As a historian of music theory, however, I note that it rests on a highly systematic view of the modes, one which does not really correspond to the existence of these modes in their own time. In the Middle Ages, the Lydian mode always included a B♭. It is only in the 16th century that this was thought to result from a transposition (of the newly conceived Ionian mode), which allowed one of the first systematic descriptions of the modes (in Glarean), but one which began losing contact with musical realities.

You may ask what difference there is, then, between the Lydian and Ionian modes. It has been shown that in real medieval modality there was a subjacent pentatonicism which made the degrees D F G A C (in our usual notation, as it also depends on that) hierarchically more important than E and B. So, the Lydian mode hierarchy would be F G A (B or B♭} C D (E) F, while the Ionian hierarchy would be C D (E) F G A (B) C. In other words, our modern major mode melodically is a Lydian one, with the 3d degree hierarchically stronger than the 4th, while harmonically it could be said closer to the Ionian one, with a strong 4th degree. This also concerns modality in other cultures (e.g. Arabic ones, with similar weak degrees, moving as B and B♭, also with quarter tones) and leads us to considerations that cannot be discussed in WP.

All this is far too technical for WP. Once again, everything could be said or claimed in WP, but it always require existing previous references, which may be lacking in this case. WP in other languages may be less strict about this, but the English WP obviously is the most trustable. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 21:46, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223214600","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241223214600-Bsenim-20241223210100","replies":["c-Bsenim-20241223215200-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241223214600"]}}-->

Do you think my findings are worth publishing? Bsenim (talk) 21:52, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223215200","author":"Bsenim","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Bsenim-20241223215200-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241223214600","replies":["c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241224093900-Bsenim-20241223215200"]}}-->

My experience of WP indicates that your findings would soon be rejected as "original research" – particularly if you publish them as "your" findings. First publish them elsewhere, possibly in a scholarly journal. You might then quote here under your pseudonym what you published there under your real name. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 09:39, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241224093900","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241224093900-Bsenim-20241223215200","replies":["c-Bsenim-20241224114700-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241224093900"]}}-->

I know I said I had little interest in writing a paper, but this statement was about a concept I felt was not noteworthy because it was already contained in most circle of fifths charts. However, the 15263748 mapping of the circle of thirds to the 48-note cycle I'm describing is something I do want to write a paper on if this mapping (or graph?) has not been published before.

I did graduate work in solid-state engineering for a couple of years, so I'm familiar with the peer-review process for scientific journal articles. I was never the primary author of any papers, but I was the second author on one that was published in the journal 'Materials Science.' I was not involved in any of the formalities of the submission process, and I'm not familiar with the rules of who can be an author. The primary author of this paper had not graduated yet, so I believe I don't need to have a PhD to be the primary author of a paper for a scientific journal. Our advisor was a co-author, but I don't think that was necessary for the submission. Do you think my findings are worthy of attempting to get a paper published in a scholarly journal? Do you think it would be wise to collaborate with someone who is dual-disciplined in music theory and number theory if I were to attempt to submit a paper, or can the merit of what I'm writing about stand on its own in the peer-review process? Bsenim (talk) 11:47, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241224114700","author":"Bsenim","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Bsenim-20241224114700-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241224093900","replies":["c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241224153800-Bsenim-20241224114700"]}}-->

When I was teaching in a university, students asked me whether they were entitled to publish scholarly papers; my answer was that the only requisite for a scientific paper is its inherent quality, not the qualification of its author. I'd say the same to you today. Your only concern is whether the journal to which you send your paper finds it interesting. As to writing in collaboration with a music theorist, I don't know. As I said before, I view your idea rather as a game with numbers and artithmetics, but I don't really see its musical utility. However, American music theory is more interested in mathematics than we are here in Europe. You should have a look at the WP articles Set theory (music) and Tonnetz (also Modulatory space, etc.), follow links in these articles, see the authors quoted there, and possibly speak with some of them.

All the best, and season greetings. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 15:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241224153800","author":"Hucbald.SaintAmand","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241224153800-Bsenim-20241224114700","replies":["c-Bsenim-20241224171600-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241224153800"]}}-->

Thanks for all of your helpful insight. I will definitely look at the WP articles you recommended. When I did a search for "journals for set theory of music," two journals that were recommended were "Music Theory Spectrum" and "Journal of Music Theory." I'm going to stop by a college library near me to see if I can access these journals there. Hope you have a nice holiday break! Bsenim (talk) 17:16, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241224171600","author":"Bsenim","type":"comment","level":10,"id":"c-Bsenim-20241224171600-Hucbald.SaintAmand-20241224153800","replies":[]}}-->