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User:Beetstra/Evidence

# Who What Diff Analysis
1 Hesperian Nomination of the R and S templates for deletion. Puts a nomination tag on {{R-phrase}}:

There are 126 R-phrase templates in Category:R-phrase templates, and 74 S-phrase templates in Category:S-phrase templates, and they all do nothing more than print an R- or S-phrase (e.g. "R1"), underlined and in blue. That is, these templates make R- and S-phrases look like wikilinks, but surprise! they don't do anything if you click on them. It did occur to me that the relevant standards might require them to be marked up in this strange manner, but no, it appears not. As far as I can tell this is simply a case of someone wanting to make R- and S-phrases look really cool. My position is that there is absolutely no reason to give these phrases their own special markup. The templates should be altered to print their phrases in plain old vanilla text, then all occurrences should be substed, and the templates and categories deleted. 		disc
diff 		(see sub-points)
1.1 ..and they all do nothing more than print an R- or S-phrase (e.g. "R1"), underlined and in blue That is, these templates make R- and S-phrases look like wikilinks, but surprise! they don't do anything if you click on them. It did occur to me that the relevant standards might require them to be marked up in this strange manner, but no, it appears not.
1.2 In this TfD he mentions that 'someone wanting to make R- and S-phrases look really cool' As the history of Wikipedia:Accessibility does not go back further than the beginning of 2006 (after the templates were created), at the point of creation these features may very well have been OK (implementation (7 February 2006)?, Physchims implementation (21 October 2005). I would not call that a nice remark. BTW, it is not Physchim62's idea, see diff.
1.3 The way the nomination was applied caused disruption onto many pages (probably a couple of 1000) in mainspace. Minor, OK, it disrupted, but that is easily changed, and though could have been circumvented (see the manual of the TFD)
1.4 The TfD could result in the deletion of 200 odd templates. Deletion of the 200 odd templates would have disrupted 4000-5000 mainspace pages, and after deletion the templates would have been recreated immediately, not necessary with the same contents, but I do not believe that a bot/editor would have repaired all these pages after the deletion.
1.5 Basis of nomination. The nomination is based on a feature that is enabled in the mediawiki software, that has stood here for 2 years, that was available on pages which have passed FA status in those two years (e.g. this version of Lead(II) nitrate, see Talk:Lead(II) nitrate, in the FA template, milestones (click show); ironically enough the version is by PhysChim62; note, this is after the implementation in the MOS guideline implementation (7 February 2006)?)), and which is only discouraged in a guideline (Wikipedia:Accessibility#Text, guideline, not policy). - implementation (7 February 2006)?, Physchims implementation (21 October 2005)
1.6 The templates should be altered to print their phrases in plain old vanilla text, then all occurrences should be substed, and the templates and categories deleted. Nope, that simply does not fit, the chembox has room problems. It does not fit the full text, only a reference to the sentence. As the link is left column of the chembox, the left column does not need a link, plainly printing e.g. 'R1' would be an option, adding the tooltip adds just a bit of extra information for many users, and only people using a screen reader would not get the tooltip, but they still have the link to the left.
2 Hesperian engages in discussion with one editor, Bryan Derksen, who did some work on the templates. Both are not involved in the direct use of the templates. diffs Hesperian may not have known that Bryan Derksen was not a chemist, that is something that comes up at the end (while editing the template, vide infra. Still I think that both did not have a look what the major place for the use was, and that links were superfluous.
2.1 Hesperian Votes delete all see 2
2.2 Bryan Derksen votes keep. see 2
3 Beetstra vote 'speedy keep'; state that the nomination causes disruption, and that I will remove the TfD notice on the template for that reason but leave the discussion open. diff
move 		I did not read Wikipedia:Speedy keep before my vote, but what I meant was 'deletion of these templates would cause major disruption to main space articles, this discussion should not take place.'
4 Rifleman 82 Rifleman 82 also votes 'speedy keep'. diff
5 DMacks 'keep'. diff
6 Hesperian Hesperian responds to Rifleman 82's and my vote for speedy keep with "Did you ever actually read Wikipedia:Speedy keep?" (the word 'read' is emphasised/italicised). diff This could also have been asked as 'How do you see Wikipedia:Speedy keep implemented here, as I feel that ..', or 'why do you think it should be speedy kept, it does not conform with one of the points in Wikipedia:Speedy keep'. The remark as it stands here does assume that I did not read Speedy keep (which I did not, indeed), and especially since the word 'read' is emphasised, I do regard this a violation of WP:AGF, to two administrators. Though, I do feel, after analysis, that it does apply. It at least does not imply wanting to discuss the issue with me.
6.1 Beetstra I must concur, no, I did not. Still I think that this discussion should be closed, since the only reason here seems to be that they don't seem (they do) to be doing anything, and I don't like them, without trying to contact people who actually worked on these templates, or a project who might be involved. Deleting these templates will result in much disruption over a lot of chemicals pages. So voting Keep diff I did not read the document, still convinced that the discussion should be closed.
7 Itub
ViperSnake151 		more 'keep' diff
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8 ViperSnake151 Changes the colour, one of the options mentioned in TfD diff
9 Walkerma more 'keep' diff
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10 Physchim62 Physchim62 closes the TfD prematurely with a speedy keep. He notes that the reasons for the deletion are not amongst the normal criteria. He also notes that review of the use of the templates would have shown that changes in template structure could have solved the problem. It is also noted that there was no discussion before the nomination. diff
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11 Hesperian Hesperian responds on User talk:Physchim62, in which he states that the closing statement is hostile in tone, and that performing the closure was an abuse of administrative privileges. diff As I believe that this was according to speedy keep (deleting these templates would have resulted
12 Hesperian Hesperian starts changing the templates, in discussion with Bryan Derksen. He changes the templates to a version which is according to what he wanted in the first place (see nomination). This feels to me as a violation of WP:POINT. diffs
13 Physchim62 Physchim62 blocks Hesperian for a personal attack citing diff. list As laid out above, further discussion was totally superfluous, deletion would have resulted in disruption, which is reason enough to Wikipedia:Speedy keep (and it was suggested by 2 administrators before the actual speedy close). Calling such actions an abuse of administrative tools is a remark on the action of the administrator, not on content (see WP:NPA; WP:BLOCK, btw, the remarks to me and Rifleman 82 and me can be explained as not assuming good faith, especially with the emphasised 'read', so this then starts to add up to harrassing these editors as to discourage involvement in the TFD). IMHO, since Hesperian was unilaterally editing after the closure of the TfD (discussing while editing, not discussing first) is also disruptive (and as such also a blockable offense). There was in no way consensus that things had to be changed.
14 Gnangarra A thread on WP:ANI gets opened. diff
15 WJBscribe Hesperian gets unblocked. list
16 WJBscribe WJBscribe protects the template; 'High risk template'. diffs Actually, what is the risk. Or is it because it is on WP:ANI that people will actually see this, and vandals will come in? Actually, I believe this is wrong. This template is apparently not in an optimal form, and protecting it disables non-admins to actually improve the template.
17 Hesperian One last edit .. diff
18 Physchim62 Physchim62 reverts the changes of Hesperian, refering to m:The wrong version. diff I believe that Hesperian has not waited for consensus for these changes.
19 Physchim62 Request for Mediation [ diff]
20 Hesperian Hesperian does not want the Request for Mediation [ diff]
21 Request for Mediation closed [ diff]
22 Hesperian Request for Arbitration [ diff]
[ diff]

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