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There seems to be some misperceptions on Wikipedia about how Atlantic universities are funded and how some institutions are designated as "public", while others are considered to be "private".
STU receives public funding - it has been in the public fold since it was moved in 1964 ("encouraged" by Robichaud's government to consolidate university campuses in the province which received provincial funds)... ABU and SSU (I just found out about this latter one a few months ago) appear to NOT receive any government funding (or very minimal, compared to the previously-mentioned institutions) and would therefore be private. There may also be registration limitations with these institutions emphasis vs. secular for the others.
In NS, PEI and NL, all universities in these provinces receive approx. 1/3 gov't funding and are considered public.
Now if the distinction were to be made between "state" (or "provincial") universities, vs. "the rest", then only UNB, UPEI and MUN are truly provincial institutions in Atlantic Canada.
Just to emphasize my point, this is an article that was published recently in the Telegraph Journal, emphasis on public funding and government control of these institutions is added by me Plasma East:
The New Brunswick Telegraph Journal
News, Saturday, January 22, 2005, p. A1/A6
Provincial News
Under the microscope
Province's pending review of N.B. universities spurs talk of big changes
SARAH MCGINNIS Special Report
If you believe some of the rumours gaining momentum in New Brunswick university circles, choosing a university in this province could become a lot easier in the future. One notion causing university buzz is that students will soon have a core choice to make before attending such a New Brunswick school, whether to attend the French or English one.
In their 2003 election platform, Bernard Lord's Progressive Conservatives promised to launch a Commission on the Future of New Brunswick's Universities, and indicated that restructuring and consolidation of university services could result from it. The province last saw such changes in the 1960s.
Little has been done on the proposed commission, but its promised approach is causing a lot of anxiety on New Brunswick university campuses. Perhaps the most robust rumour has it that Mount Allison University, St. Thomas University and the University of New Brunswick could be merged into one school, with each campus offering standardized courses, programs and education requirements.
If such a change took place, UNBSJ would probably act as a model for combining other schools, the rumor goes. But those engaging in such talk - who are loath to go on the record about it - suggest consolidation could also mean changes to some of the flagship programs at each campus. For instance, the Masters of Business Administration is not an accredited program at either Saint John or Fredericton. Combining universities could mean standardizing programs such as that one.
This standardizing of programs has already been suggested on a wider scale. In a 2001 report to Atlantic premiers, consultant Charles McMillan recommended that an Atlantic School of Management be created, linking the region's best business-related programs via the Internet to create one umbrella school. He suggested interdependence would cut administrative costs while creating a school that could rank among the best in Canada.
These are some of the many reform theories floating around post secondary institutions as the government prepares to launch its commission.
Back on the campaign trail, the Tories said the commission's mandate would be to "study and make fundamental recommendations on how each of our universities can grow and become stronger national and international institutions over the long-term."
The Conservatives also pledged they would make universities appear annually before a select committee on education to answer questions on how government funds were spent. That vow, too, has yet to be fulfilled.
Little has been said about these policies since the election, but many educators wonder if the universities commission will move to the forefront now that the provincial Commission on Legislative Democracy wrapped up.
Education department spokesman Jason Humphrey said work is underway on the projects but offered few details of what has been accomplished. How the commission and the select committee would operate is still being worked out, he said.
There is no time frame on when the groups will be formed, or when proposals will be made before government. But, they are being considered for inclusion into the Quality Learning Agenda this year, Mr. Humphrey said.
The proposed commission, however, is already causing concern. Many university officials are bracing for consolidation of programs, merging of schools or recommendations to take such steps.
UNBSJ vice-president Kathryn Hamer unveiled a 15-year plan for the school's expansion Thursday. The vision would see new residences, new academic buildings and additional student services. The development would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to complete, but it could be in jeopardy if the commission on universities takes the Saint John campus in a different direction.
Ms. Hamer has heard the rumours surrounding the commission, but she's not ready to give up on her vision for UNBSJ. If the English universities were merged, UNBSJ could be a model for how to operate a satellite campus, she said.
"There are always issues as soon as you are operating a multi-unit university, but...It's not impossible," she said. "Distances are not that great in this province and we have all kinds of communication forms we didn't have 25 to 30 years ago. I wouldn't see it as a disaster come to strike us. We're already living that reality."
As for recommendations to standardize programs, the results may not make as much sense as such a plan does on paper, Ms. Hamer said.
"Governments often want to reduce what they see as expenses by offering one of whatever. It's not always the best solution, it's not always the most economical solution either," Ms. Hamer said.
Possible government-imposed changes worry St. Thomas University president Daniel O'Brien. The last time universities were restructured the Université de Moncton was created and STU was moved from the Miramichi to Fredericton. The decision was a "fairly traumatic upheaval" for the university, Mr. O'Brien said. This time, the commission might recommend that STU and the University of New Brunswick, located next door, merge, he said.
Some have argued that Fredericton does not need two universities offering an arts education, but not all programs are the same and students deserve the right to choose what is best for them, Mr. O'Brien said.
"There's duplication in the commercial world. Not everyone buys the same product. Some people prefer one product over another, which for all intents and purposes looks similar on the surface, but when you bore down into it (it) makes subtle differences to the consumer," he said.
Despite these concerns, the university is not opposed to the commission, just cautious as to what the mandate might be and what it might explore, Mr. O'Brien said.
A review of New Brunswick universities will find that they are already fairly specialized, each focusing on its own unique programs, said UNB student union president Greg LeBlanc. There are only so many students schools can market themselves to, and various universities already co-operate to ensure that there isn't over duplication, he said.
"They know they have to offer good programs, and if Mount Allison has a stronger fine arts department than UNB, then instead of having to spend even more money recreating it, (UNB would) spend their money in another program," Mr. LeBlanc said.
Universities could benefit from government looking at the big picture, said UNB president John McLaughlin.
"It's time to have a new look at higher education in this province," said Mr. McLaughlin. "The last time it was seriously reviewed was back in the 1960s and we were all in the expansion mode. Forty years later, a lot of things have changed, and it's time to take another look."
Liberal Leader Shawn Graham said the commission should examine Maritime universities as a whole as well as those within New Brunswick.
"If we are going to start positioning our universities so we are able to compete internationally, we also have to take into context what our Maritime counterparts are doing as well," he said.
At present Maritime universities fight each other for government grants and research money, he said. In the 1970s, the Maritime provinces co-operated on post-secondary education, agreeing that Prince Edward Island should establish the region's only veterinary program, that New Brunswick should offer forestry and that Nova Scotia should run the medical school. It's time to revisit these agreements, and foster similar co-operation, Mr. Graham said.
There's a fine line between reviewing the structure of universities to ensure the system is working and dictating to institutions how they should run their schools, and it is the proposed commission's potential to do the latter that concerns Mount Allison University president Kenneth Ozmon.
"I think we should be prepared to answer questions that are posed to us by those who are the guardians of the money and the public interest on education expenditures," Mr. Ozmon said.
"I would have some concerns if there were questions of why you have people taking these courses rather than these, or why did you hire this person, or why don't you admit people like this rather than the ones you're admitting," he said.
Universities have always been autonomous, and maintaining that distance from government is key, Mr. Ozmon said.
The province should become active in how universities operate since it contributes between one-third to one-half of all operating funds, said Kelvin Ogilvie, who is researching university governance issues for the Atlantic Institute for Market Studies, a Halifax-based think tank.
As the former president of Acadia University, in Wolfville, N.S., Mr. Ogilvie argued to maintain the independence of that institution in the past, but said his arguments felt hollow. If a government contributes millions of dollars a year, or in most cases more than 30 per cent of a university's annual operating budget, it's its right to have a say in how that money is spent.
New Brunswick isn't the first government to look at restructuring universities. In the 1990s Nova Scotia engaged in a similar exercise. It resulted in some schools merging, and programs at others ending. In Ontario, former premier Bob Rae is reviewing that province's post-secondary institutions and his report is expected to propose massive changes. Other provinces are expected to follow suit.
Liberal education critic Kelly Lamrock said the government should better examine why so many New Brunswick youth aren't going to university, and look for ways to reduce student debt loads, rather than dictating to schools how they should spend their money.
He said he would be thrilled if the province addressed what he sees as a looming crisis in post-secondary education - but instead thinks it will be a navel gazing exercise where the province will focus on strategic plans and mission statements instead of making needed changes.
"I think the reason the government has been reluctant to get on with the real issues is because they involved fundamentally changing how we fund universities and the investments we make," Mr. Lamrock said.
Students know full well the importance of securing adequate funding for universities. In recent years they have watched tuition rise as schools claim they don't get enough money from the province.
"There should be more accessibility for students in New Brunswick...New Brunswick is the province with the highest of student debt loads," said STU student union president Shawn Stevenson.
If the government began merging programs, forcing students to travel farther to receive their education, then the costs would rise dramatically. Many young people feel they can't afford to attend university now. Asking them to move elsewhere for school could make a post-secondary education even less accessible, he said.
But, Mr. Ogilvie said merging universities or centralizing programs could actually benefit students. For a university program to succeed there must be a critical mass of qualified teachers, he said. By providing the same type of program at various locations, New Brunswick's academics are spread out and that critical mass is hindered. If the programs were consolidated, they could compete better on a national level.
"The idea of lack of mobility on the part of students is greatly exaggerated," said Mr. Ogilvie. "One of the great advantages to a university education is getting away from the home community and gaining new experiences."
If the program is well run and offers students the education they are looking for, then young people will move to attend it.
The distinction
The distinction is who appoints their Board of Governors? In Canada, public Universities have their Boards of Governors (or equiv) appointed by the provincial government. --Spinboy 05:18, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It depends how narrow the interpretation of public vs. private is. Would a secular, open/publicly run instition which receives 1/3 of its funding from gov't, despite having a board of governors independent from gov't, be public or private? If the definition states such an instition would be private, then only UNB, UPEI, MUN, and possibly UdM and UCCB would be public institutions in Atlantic Canada, as their boards were all "initially" appointed by gov't and gov't might still have a seat at the table, although I doubt it. If the Ontario or American model were applied to this region, then these schools would be similar in their administration/funding etc. to Carleton, Waterloo, Guelph, Lakehead, Maine, SUNY, Michigan State, and so on.
Regardless of provincial vs. non-provincial, all universities and their boards (or equivalent) in Atlantic Canada are empowered by acts of the respective provincial legislatures. In the case where a school used to be run by a church and is now secularized, control would have been transferred from that church to the board. If gov't established the school and appointed the initial boards (assuming they don't have a seat at the table), then control of the institution is automatically vested with that board. Regardless of the difference, subsequent members are generally "nominated" to the boards and then approved by the boards - everything is a closed process.
So where only UNB, UPEI, MUN, and possibly UdM and UCCB can be considered "provincial" or "state" universities, all other institutions (ie. Dal, Acadia, SMU, MSVU, STFX, NSCAD, USteA, MTA, STU, etc., except Atlantic Baptist & St. Stephen's, are secular public universities which are run by independent boards of governors who administer the universities, but gov't is not directly involved in their operation. A similar case might be seen with Queen's in Ontario, or McGill in Quebec, or an Ivy League in the states, I suppose. They are all open to admission from any member of the public, no criteria based on religious affiliation etc. Although gov't isn't even that involved in the governance of the provincial institutions, where gov't has flexed its muscles in the past can be seen in the Telegraph-Journal article whereby if gov't provides funding, they have mandated campus consolidations and/or removal of program duplications etc. in all provinces, regardless of the type of institution, so in my opinion they are all similar.
The history of post-secondary education in this region is very much tied to the churches. In fact the only institution which I can think of from pre-20th century which was not religiously affiliated to some extent was Prince of Wales College. STU, MSVU, SMU, STFX, USteAnne and SDU (now part of UPEI) all had their start as Catholic instutions and are now secularized/public. UdM's founding colleges were all Catholic at the time of consolidation in the early 60's into UdM. Dal had its start as a Presbyterian insitution, I believe. King's in NS was Anglican, King's in NB (now part of UNB) was Anglican as well - although the Church of England was tightly tied to gov'ts in those colonies early on. Mt.A was Methodist/Wesleyan, UCCB had its start as an extension of STFX but it was merged by gov't with NSEIT in the 60s. Even the two schools in Atlantic Can. which are still tied to churches with their theology programs - Atlantic Baptist Conv. theology school at Acadia, Catholic/United Church/Presbyterian/Anglican at Atlantic School of Theology, are publicly funded so these instituions are included with Dal, MtA, etc.
Secularization was at its peak in this region's universities during the 50's-60's I'd say (late 80's in the case of MSVU). If I recall correctly, Dal was likely one of the earliest to secularize, either in the late 1800s or early 1900s). Once the respective provincial legislation was enacted and control of these universities were transferred from their respective churches to independent boards of governors, typically the board was initially comprised of members from that church (usually the founding church was given several seats at the table). This gradually migrated over the years as the churches lost interest in participating, to the point where their seats are largely symbolic these days. Only 2 (that I know of) institutions established in recent decades, in response to securalization, can be considered truly private - those being Atlantic Baptist and St. Stephen's (although I don't know very much about the latter)... Plasma east 03:25, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
If it's religious, it's obviously not public. No matter where the funding comes from. --Spinboy 03:28, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
If you apply that logic, then all of Nova Scotia's universities, except for NSAC and possibly UCCB, are private. I have degrees from Dal, Mt.A and UNB and they're as public as any other institution in Canada. Like I said, ABU and St. Stephen's are the only truly private universities in this region.Plasma east 04:05, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Their own website talks about Christian education. It's a religious university, and thus, private. If it were secular, then it would be more questionable. --Spinboy 04:10, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Have you attended STU? I haven't, and have no affiliation with it, although I work at UNB, 5 min. down the hill from their north gate - trust me, it's public. It has the same history behind its evolution as other Catholic schools in the region which have never completely 100% secularized, just the same as Mt.A, Acadia, and Dal haven't. I know of priests/nuns teaching at MSVU, SMU, STFX (very very Catholic in their heritage), UPEI (dating from its SDU heritage), Ste-Anne, UdM, etc. STU has a "religious studies" program, and a chapel with a chaplain on campus (as most Maritime universities do) and wears its heritage proudly, but it's still secular.Plasma east 04:20, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
We provide an atmosphere hospitable to faith, where students may pursue the academic study of the Roman Catholic tradition and the experience of Christian life.[1] --Spinboy 04:48, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Well, if you apply the litmus test you suggest for public/private then it'll be private I guess. I'll let the STU folks argue the merits of the designation.Plasma east 06:03, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
As a New Brunswicker and a graduate of nearby UNBF, I can assure you that STU is a public univeristy. It's President and board are appointed by the province and it receives funding in the same fashion as UNB, UdeM and MtA. Yes it has a Catholic chapel and some of its philosophy and religious study profs are Catholic clergy but the same is true for UdeM. UNB has an Anglican chapel. This is a public school. - Jord 17:14, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
AND if you didn't want to take my word for it, here it is in black and white: [2]. - Jord 17:16, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for that. --Spinboy 18:59, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Spinboy, please see my link above, according to the New Brunswick Department of Education, Bethany Bible College is chartered as a private university. - Jord 18:56, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The words Bible College indicate seminary, no matter what that site says. --Spinboy 18:59, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Does it not occur to you that it could have started as a seminary and later became a university but kept its name? At the end of the day, it has been granted a university charter by the jurisdiction with authority to do so. That indicates that it is a university, no matter what its name is. - Jord 19:03, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
In fact, according to the history page of its site it started in 1945 and was recognized as a degree granting institution in 1983. - Jord 19:06, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It's own website admit's it is a seminary. Degree granting or not, it's a seminary. In the accomplishment of the Mission of the College, the specific goal of Bethany Bible College is to prepare pastors, church planters, missionaries, youth pastors, Christian education directors, ministers of music, teachers for Christian schools, and general Christian service workers.[3] --Spinboy 19:07, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Its website also says In 1983, the Province of New Brunswick, through official legislation, authorized Bethany to grant church-related degrees. The province of NB also has the Degree Granting Act under which it can bestow the authority to grant degrees on institutions that it does not recognize as universities. It does recocnize Bethany as a university. This seems simple to me. - Jord 19:31, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I think what we have here is a disagreement on what constitutes a "university" by definition. To me, the designation "university" is bestowed by a political jurisdiction. That is the case for Bethany.
According to dictionary.com a "university" is:
An institution for higher learning with teaching and research facilities constituting a graduate school and professional schools that award master's degrees and doctorates and an undergraduate division that awards bachelor's degrees
If we follow that definition, Bethany does not qualify. However, under that definition, STU and Mt. A. don't either because they don't have graduate programs.
Further, Wiktionary defines "university" as an Institution of higher education (typically accepting students from the age of about 17 or 18, depending on country, but in some cases able to take younger students in exceptional cases) where subjects are studied and researched in depth and degrees are offered. Again, how does Bethany not meet this criteria? - Jord 19:37, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm not saying it doesn't, they obviously grant undergraduate degrees, as do ALL bible colleges/seminaries. I'm saying it's a seminary because they cater by their own admission to Christian education/pastors. --Spinboy 19:40, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am sure there are other "seminaries" in New Brunswick but the distinction is that the province classifies this one as a "university". That makes the difference. - Jord 19:51, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Also, what is the difference, other than their names, between St. Stephen's & Atlantic Baptist and Bethany? You seem to concede that SSU and ABU are private universities but not BBC. Yet BBC is recognized as such by the province in exactly the same fashion as SSU & ABU. - Jord 19:54, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
That's a good question. Maybe they are seminaries too. But clearly from BBC's website, their job is to train new pastors, and thus, they are seminaries. --Spinboy 20:12, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
That is their main job but they offer a Bachelor of Arts degree in Christian Education (non-ordination). So they do grant degrees that don't lead to the ministry. Could a school not be both a seminary and a university? Like it or not, according to the law of the land, BBC is a university. I am not arguing that it isn't a seminary, however it is a university. - Jord 21:19, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It's a college/seminary that offers degrees. --Spinboy 21:24, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
According the the New Brunswick Department of Education, which has far more authority than you or I, says it is a Private Chartered University. That should be the end of this discussion!! - Jord 21:35, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You already gave us the definition of university, and it doesn't fit that either. --Spinboy 21:42, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It meets the Wiktoinary definition and, as I pointed out, neither Mt.A nor STU meet the dictionary.com definition but they clearly are universities. By the dictionary.com definition, BBC is just as much a university as MTA and STU.
User:Plasma east suggested in Template talk:Can-sem that perhaps a new template needs to be created for private religious institutions/universities since many seminaries are offering undergrad degrees. --Spinboy 07:40, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'll try to keep my comments brief as the discussion on the template mentioned above outlines my concerns about the use of the word "seminary" - this should be used judiciously and only for institutions providing degrees for ordained clergy AND it should only be for institutions accredited by the Association of Theological Schools in the United States and Canada, in addition to their respective provincial accreditation authorities. As such, there are no seminaries (ie. institutions offering theological studies) in New Brunswick. The only 2 institutions offering such an education in Atlantic Canada are at Acadia and AST. The religious-oriented degree-granting institutions in New Brunswick are classed as universities by the provincial gov't, but are not "seminaries" as they do not provide a theological education, nor are they accredited by ATSUSC and they are likewise not accredited by the Maritime Provinces Higher Education Commission.Plasma east 08:02, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I should note that previously the seminary template had been called Bible Colleges, but someone (I think Darkcore) changed it. --Spinboy 17:11, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
And related to the discussion about Bethany, which now offers university degrees - a pastor is not the same as an ordained minister.Plasma east 08:09, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
No, an ordained minister comes after a few years of working as a pastor. --Spinboy 17:11, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Since we are on the subject of accreditation, AST is a publicly funded chartered university in the province of Nova Scotia and it is accredited by the MPHEC and the ATSUSC, therefore it should be included in the NS_Uni template at the same level as the other institutions (ie. public). On the subject of Bethany Bible College, it is recognized by the province as a degre-granting university under its charter, therefore it should be classed as such in this template, albeit under private, since it is obviously not included in the MPHEC accreditation.Plasma east 08:02, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
And if people are not aware about the MPHEC, here is its blurb taken from the "stakeholders" section of their website:
As an agency of the Council of Maritime Premiers the Commission serves a number of stakeholders from across the region, including 16 publicly funded institutions offering university degree programmes, two specialized applied arts and technology post-secondary institutions, the Ministers responsible for Post-Secondary Education in the Maritimes, and the public-at-large (includes students).Plasma east 08:02, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't agreee to that. --Spinboy 17:07, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I should also note that Wikipedia isn't an exercise in democracy. So far 2 people want it one way, and I want it another. Thus there is no consensus. --Spinboy 17:13, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I would agree with Jord. It's not up to us to decide what is and isn't a university, it's up to the respective provincial governments with respect to what is and isn't a private university (ie. no public funding & therefore no gov't say in its operation), and the Maritimes' public university accreditation authority as to what is and isn't a public university (ie. public funding & therefore gov't has a say in its operation). I'd say it's pretty simple and that NB gov't website that was noted in the thread earlier should stand as the authority on the question of Bethany since nobody among us is qualified to do so.Plasma east 17:34, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
To me it's a bible college clear and simple and doesn't belong under the university header. --Spinboy 05:02, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I really don't understand your argument here Spinboy. The province has the authority to recognize instituions as universities. Therefore, those which they recognize as such are that. I am going to put up an RFC notice for this page over on the notice board. - Jord 17:46, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm confused by the logic being used here as well. To me it doesn't matter one iota if a university degree-granting institution in a province is, or isn't, religiously affiliated. If the said province gives it a university degree-granting charter, then it's a university. Whether or not it's privately or publicly funded is another matter. There are issues with 3 institutions on the NB_Uni template, and 1 institution on the NS_Uni template.
The Maritime Provinces Higher Education Commission (our accreditation authority) recognizes the Atlantic School of Theology in Halifax as a publicly funded university, therefore it should be placed on the NS_Uni template. While the MPHEC doesn't recognize them as publicly funded insitutions, the New Brunswick government has recognized 3 religious institutions as being private universities: St. Stephen's University in St. Stephen, Atlantic Baptist University in Moncton, and Bethany Bible College in Sussex. Although there isn't a need for a template for Prince Edward Island since there is only one public university, that province has also granted a privately funded religious institution a degree-granting charter - the Maritime Christian College.
I'd say that these private institutions with degree-granting charters are unique in that they are starting down the very road that many of the public universities in the Maritimes began. Mt.A, UPEI, UNB, UdM, Kings, Acadia, St.FX, SMU, St.Anne, MSVU and UCCB all had their start with religious institutions and have since received public funding and become secularized. If the same logic that pervades in this discussion were applied to these other institutions even 30-40 years ago, I doubt many would make it to the template at all, despite the fact that they received their degree granting charters decades before. I think the problem is an ignorance of the shared history and traditions that are present between religion and post-secondary education in the Maritime region and we're trying to force a square peg into a round hole.Plasma east 03:50, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Private Universities Lansbridge University (for profit, business/technology) and Yorkville University, both offer online education programs. Yorkville University was established in 2003 in Fredericton, New Brunswick. The University is private and non-denominational, specializing in practice oriented graduate level academic programs. In March, 2004, the Department of Education of the Province of New Brunswick granted Designation status, recognizing Yorkville University as a University, and a degree granting institution authorized to offer the Master of Arts degree in Counselling Psychology.
