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I think that with regard to the Israeli and Palestinian geo templates, it was agreed to use the flag and not a map of the territory since it is POV either way. --Shuki 20:54, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-07-04T20:54:00.000Z","author":"Shuki","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Shuki-2006-07-04T20:54:00.000Z-Scoping_and_image","replies":["c-Tewfik-2006-07-06T21:57:00.000Z-Shuki-2006-07-04T20:54:00.000Z"]}}-->

I concur and would support a reversion. A Palestinian state is envisioned on both more and less territory than the West Bank and Gaza Strip (not to mention territorial exchange). It is worth noting, though, that the geo-stub is specifically applied to places within those boundaries. Tewfik^Talk 21:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-07-06T21:57:00.000Z","author":"Tewfik","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Tewfik-2006-07-06T21:57:00.000Z-Shuki-2006-07-04T20:54:00.000Z","replies":["c-Grutness-2006-10-01T00:02:00.000Z-Tewfik-2006-07-06T21:57:00.000Z"]}}-->

I've reworded the template accordingly - this will also save it from being confused with places in historical (pre 1948) Palestine. Grutness...wha? 00:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-10-01T00:02:00.000Z","author":"Grutness","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Grutness-2006-10-01T00:02:00.000Z-Tewfik-2006-07-06T21:57:00.000Z","replies":["c-Amoruso-2006-10-12T21:38:00.000Z-Grutness-2006-10-01T00:02:00.000Z"]}}-->

If you reworded it, we can also move it. I changed Palestine to PNA. Amoruso 21:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-10-12T21:38:00.000Z","author":"Amoruso","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Amoruso-2006-10-12T21:38:00.000Z-Grutness-2006-10-01T00:02:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Re: Ramallite's edit summary, I'm sure that we can all find an appropriate compromise. We all recognise that while there currently is no political entity called Palestine, this tag is practically going to apply to places in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Surely we can all meet halfway? Cheers, Tewfik^Talk 01:57, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-10-13T01:57:00.000Z","author":"Tewfik","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tewfik-2006-10-13T01:57:00.000Z-Scoping_and_image","replies":[]}}-->

{{protected}}

This page is protected from moving - please do not move stub templates without first debating such moves. Arguing about the wording of the template is fine, but not moving it. As it is, the current name was debated and this name was decided upon as being the most suitable for it. PNA refers to many things, of which the Palestinian national Authority is but one. PNA, in fact, redirects to a chemical!

The name is still not appropriate and will have to change once you unprotect. I'm very surprised by Tewfik's edit summary of "a government's territory, like 'geography of Israel,' or 'geography of New Zealand", which would only be accurate were it not called " geography of the Palestinian National Authority". The "Palestinian National Authority", unlike "Israel" and "New Zealand", is not the name of a territory and government, it's the name of a governing authority only. Let's leave aside the fact that it doesn't really govern anything and has no sovereignty over any of the land it 'governs' and actually covers more Area B than Area A and all that. The name of the template now is as utterly ridiculous as saying "Geography of the Government of Israel" or "Geography of the Chamber of Commerce of Toronto". Palestinian National Authority is not the name of a geographic location (unless one reads too much Israeli press, which sometimes uses it as such because they can't bring themselves to call it anything else). Completely unacceptable encyclopedically and grammatically. I think people here are smart enough to come up with something better, hopefully in proper English! Ramallite ^(talk) 15:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-10-17T15:23:00.000Z","author":"Ramallite","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Ramallite-2006-10-17T15:23:00.000Z-Scoping_and_image","replies":[]}}-->

I propose using Palestinian territories for geography stubs of this kind:

This geography of the Palestinian territories article is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.

-- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 12:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-10-20T12:46:00.000Z","author":"Ynhockey","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Ynhockey-2006-10-20T12:46:00.000Z-Scoping_and_image","replies":[]}}-->

I agree with Ramallite that the current text is no good. I suggest splitting this into separate "West_Bank-geo-stub" and "Gaza_Strip-geo-stub" templates, because these are actually well-defined geographical regions with more-or-less agreed-upon borders. -- uriber 18:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-03-25T18:27:00.000Z","author":"Uriber","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Uriber-2007-03-25T18:27:00.000Z-Scoping_and_image","replies":["c-CMummert-2007-03-25T20:29:00.000Z-Uriber-2007-03-25T18:27:00.000Z"],"displayName":"-- uriber"}}-->

{{Editprotected}}. This suggestion is not specific enough for an admin to make the edit. If there is consensus for a split, i suggest first making the new templates, then migrating to them, rather than changing this one. CMummert · talk 20:29, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-03-25T20:29:00.000Z","author":"CMummert","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-CMummert-2007-03-25T20:29:00.000Z-Uriber-2007-03-25T18:27:00.000Z","replies":["c-Alai-2007-05-11T08:23:00.000Z-CMummert-2007-03-25T20:29:00.000Z","c-Tiamut-2007-05-12T09:14:00.000Z-CMummert-2007-03-25T20:29:00.000Z"]}}-->

Establishing such consensus would ideally involve WP:WSS/P on the one hand, and the related wikiprojects on the other. As a number of places in the West Bank are currently tagged with {{Israel-geo-stub}}, it would be wise to be as clear as possible about whether the intended scope for this stub type (or the above suggested replacements) is "all of the WB&G", "the WB&G minus the Israeli settlements", "the areas under the control of the PNA", or some other formulation, and (here's hoping) as wide a consensus as possible about what that should be. Alai 08:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-05-11T08:23:00.000Z","author":"Alai","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Alai-2007-05-11T08:23:00.000Z-CMummert-2007-03-25T20:29:00.000Z","replies":["c-Tiamut-2007-05-11T10:26:00.000Z-Alai-2007-05-11T08:23:00.000Z"]}}-->

What tag would an area like the Seam Zone be accorded?Tiamut 10:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-05-11T10:26:00.000Z","author":"Tiamut","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Tiamut-2007-05-11T10:26:00.000Z-Alai-2007-05-11T08:23:00.000Z","replies":["c-Alai-2007-05-11T20:38:00.000Z-Tiamut-2007-05-11T10:26:00.000Z"]}}-->

If the scope is "Palestinian territories" or "West Bank" (or "disputed territories", or "Judea and Samaria", or whatever form of words to that effect yer havin' yersel'), then the normal interpretation would be to follow internationally-recognised borders, i.e. to include such areas within such templates. (The borders of present states, or delineated state-free areas, such as {{Antarctica-geo-stub}}; hence the lack of (say) a {{Kurdistan-geo-stub}}, or an {{Ottoman-geo-stub}}.) The current scoping statement would seem to assume they're Israel-geo-stubs (or terranulla-geo-stub, or otherwise nosuch-geo-stub). Alai 20:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-05-11T20:38:00.000Z","author":"Alai","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Alai-2007-05-11T20:38:00.000Z-Tiamut-2007-05-11T10:26:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

What internally recognized borders? Israel's borders are "undefined". [1] "According to Ezrahi, a central problem is the undefined borders between the Israeli state and the Arab state. “No historians or religious leaders could agree what precisely were the borders of Israel …Israel became a borderless entity,” said Ezrahi. This, he argues, leads to problems between the army and the police. “In a normal country, the army is responsible for the security of external enemies and the police is supposed to deal with internal conflicts…but in Israel, we don’t know exactly what is internal and what is external, and it’s a very unhealthy situation." Further, the Seam Zone lies within the West Bank.Tiamut 09:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-05-12T09:14:00.000Z","author":"Tiamut","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Tiamut-2007-05-12T09:14:00.000Z-CMummert-2007-03-25T20:29:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Some Palestinian places are not located in the palestinian territories, but other regions in historical Palestine. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:28, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-11-16T10:28:00.000Z","author":"Supreme Deliciousness","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-11-16T10:28:00.000Z-Scoping_and_image","replies":[]}}-->

This template is protected, and should be tagged with {{protected template}}, or another suitable protection template. Thanks – Qxz 19:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-03-15T19:43:00.000Z","author":"Qxz","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Qxz-2007-03-15T19:43:00.000Z-Requested_edit","replies":["c-Luna_Santin-2007-03-16T02:31:00.000Z-Qxz-2007-03-15T19:43:00.000Z"]}}-->

Y Done. – Luna Santin (talk) 02:31, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-03-16T02:31:00.000Z","author":"Luna Santin","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Luna_Santin-2007-03-16T02:31:00.000Z-Qxz-2007-03-15T19:43:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Marokwitz, Get consensus here first if you want to make contentious changes. The Palestinian flag represents everything Palestinian, there is no reason to replace it. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:27, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-11-16T10:27:00.000Z","author":"Supreme Deliciousness","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-11-16T10:27:00.000Z-contentious_change","replies":["c-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T10:37:00.000Z-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-11-16T10:27:00.000Z"]}}-->

• This template is for articles about the geographical area called Palestine, an area that today includes Israel and the Palestinian territories, as well as parts of Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. It's not about Palestinians, and not about the political entity proclaimed in 1988, State of Palestine, and not about the Palestinian authority. If you think that the scope does not include these, then the template needs to be renamed, to something such as "Geography of the proclaimed State of Palestine" or "Geography of the Palestinian Authority" . Marokwitz (talk) 10:37, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-11-16T10:37:00.000Z","author":"Marokwitz","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T10:37:00.000Z-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-11-16T10:27:00.000Z","replies":["c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-11-16T10:45:00.000Z-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T10:37:00.000Z"]}}-->

The scope is everything related to being Palestinian. State, mandate, historical border, everything. So why have anything else but a Palestinian flag to represent this? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:45, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-11-16T10:45:00.000Z","author":"Supreme Deliciousness","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-11-16T10:45:00.000Z-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T10:37:00.000Z","replies":["c-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T10:56:00.000Z-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-11-16T10:45:00.000Z"]}}-->

Can you explain what the word "Palestine" refers to in the sentence "This geography of Palestine article is a stub"? Marokwitz (talk) 10:56, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-11-16T10:56:00.000Z","author":"Marokwitz","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T10:56:00.000Z-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-11-16T10:45:00.000Z","replies":["c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-11-16T11:04:00.000Z-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T10:56:00.000Z"]}}-->

Anything geographical in any way connected to different kinds of forms of Palestine, whether its historical Palestine, Mandate Palestine, Palestinian territories, State of Palestine, etc. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:04, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-11-16T11:04:00.000Z","author":"Supreme Deliciousness","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-11-16T11:04:00.000Z-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T10:56:00.000Z","replies":["c-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T11:12:00.000Z-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-11-16T11:04:00.000Z"]}}-->

Very strange. If this template covers Historical Palestine, Mandate Palestine (which have their own flags), why should this template use the flag used by the Palestinian People since 1964? And how would the reader know that the scope is "Anything geographical in any way connected to different kinds of forms of Palestine, whether its historical Palestine, Mandate Palestine, Palestinian territories, State of Palestine, etc", when that the template simply says "Geography of Palestine"? Marokwitz (talk) 11:12, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-11-16T11:12:00.000Z","author":"Marokwitz","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T11:12:00.000Z-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-11-16T11:04:00.000Z","replies":["c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-11-16T11:19:00.000Z-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T11:12:00.000Z"]}}-->

The Israel geo stub doesn't say "State of Israel", the Syria geo stub doesn't say "Syrian Arab Republic". Syria has had about 15 different flags during these last 90 years:[2], imagine if we had different geo stub flags for all of these, the modern Syria flag represents everything in the past, same thing with the Palestinian flag.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-11-16T11:19:00.000Z","author":"Supreme Deliciousness","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-11-16T11:19:00.000Z-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T11:12:00.000Z","replies":["c-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T11:28:00.000Z-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-11-16T11:19:00.000Z"]}}-->

I'm trying to understand your analogy. Are you are saying that the proclaimed State of Palestine and Mandate Palestine are both the same entity, or a succession of each other? If you are, this is quite a contentious claim. If not, then this template can't just bunch them together as if they were one thing. Marokwitz (talk) 11:28, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-11-16T11:28:00.000Z","author":"Marokwitz","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T11:28:00.000Z-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-11-16T11:19:00.000Z","replies":["c-Shuki-2010-11-16T11:34:00.000Z-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T11:28:00.000Z"]}}-->

Why 'contentious'? It was merely bold. The discussion is legitimate. There should be a split with regards to pre-1948 and after. SupremeDelicious, please suggest the scope. --Shuki (talk) 11:34, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-11-16T11:34:00.000Z","author":"Shuki","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-Shuki-2010-11-16T11:34:00.000Z-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T11:28:00.000Z","replies":["c-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T11:38:00.000Z-Shuki-2010-11-16T11:34:00.000Z"]}}-->

I agree. Marokwitz (talk) 11:38, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-11-16T11:38:00.000Z","author":"Marokwitz","type":"comment","level":10,"id":"c-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T11:38:00.000Z-Shuki-2010-11-16T11:34:00.000Z","replies":["c-Marokwitz-2010-11-17T13:21:00.000Z-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T11:38:00.000Z"]}}-->

Good, so I guess were are OK then. Marokwitz (talk) 13:21, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-11-17T13:21:00.000Z","author":"Marokwitz","type":"comment","level":11,"id":"c-Marokwitz-2010-11-17T13:21:00.000Z-Marokwitz-2010-11-16T11:38:00.000Z","replies":["c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-12-02T22:29:00.000Z-Marokwitz-2010-11-17T13:21:00.000Z"]}}-->

There is already a separate British mandate stub with the mandate flag:[3] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-12-02T22:29:00.000Z","author":"Supreme Deliciousness","type":"comment","level":12,"id":"c-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-12-02T22:29:00.000Z-Marokwitz-2010-11-17T13:21:00.000Z","replies":["c-Marokwitz-2010-12-03T07:09:00.000Z-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-12-02T22:29:00.000Z"]}}-->

That's right, I created it. As I already explained, this template is for the geographical region known as Palestine, and that's why it links to that article. This geographical area is presently shared by Israel and the Palestinian Authority. It doesn't have a flag. You clearly don't have consensus for reverting. Marokwitz (talk) 07:09, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-12-03T07:09:00.000Z","author":"Marokwitz","type":"comment","level":13,"id":"c-Marokwitz-2010-12-03T07:09:00.000Z-Supreme_Deliciousness-2010-12-02T22:29:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->