1/2/2024 The West Syriac Rite (yes, Syriac Orthodox Church) possesses the ancient form of the East Syriac Rite (which did not leverage the liturgy of Mor Addai, but leveraged the Syriac Orthodox anaphora of St. John Chrysostom, not to be confused with the Basilian one used in the Greek Orthodox Church). The liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, while not ordered by the Orthodox communion (no Council of Trullo), is still used. Another East Syriac influence is the Fast of Nineveh. The Armenian Rite, as is. The Coptic Rite, as is. The Ge'ez Rite, as is. The Malankara Rite, as is. Explanation for the rite of the Latins is that Mar Alvares led the Roman Church into communion. They use the mass of Gregory the Dialogist (and were allowed to retain such, unknown if modifications have occurred). — Preceding unsigned comment added by AntiVaticanII (talk • contribs) 01:00, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240103010000","author":"AntiVaticanII","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-AntiVaticanII-20240103010000-Liturgies","replies":[]}}-->
Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church and Malabar Independent Syrian Church are two churches in India which follows Oriental Orthodox faith. What is the problem in including these churches in the portal? ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 03:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-05-07T03:15:00.000Z","author":"Kokkarani","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kokkarani-2017-05-07T03:15:00.000Z-Oriental_Orthodox_Churches","replies":[],"displayName":"Mandrake_the_Magician"}}-->
Any Church in this world which follows the Oriental Orthodox creed, beliefs and rituals are considered Oriental Orthodox .You may please read the Wikipedia articles about Jacobite Church and Thozhiyoor Church. Both are Oriental Orthodox churches. May be NOT all these churches are in full communion. However Oriental Orthodoxy portal encompasses all churches in the world which follows Oriental Orthodox creed, beliefs, and rituals.Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 03:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-05-07T03:26:00.000Z","author":"Kokkarani","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kokkarani-2017-05-07T03:26:00.000Z-Oriental_Orthodox_Churches","replies":["c-171.48.29.171-2017-05-07T04:31:00.000Z-Kokkarani-2017-05-07T03:26:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Mandrake_the_Magician"}}-->
If this portal name is Oriental Orthodoxy, it should include the churches which follows that faith.I am wondering WHO decided that only the churches in communion will be listed in this portal? Just curios to know. Jacobite church is an Autonomous church with its head as Catholicos. It is a Malankara Church which follows Oriental Orthodox faith. Simply using the word Malankara for denoting Orthodox syrian church is not correct. Malanakara encompasses all Malankara churches= Malankara Church. Instead, use Malankara Orthodox to denote Orthodox Syrian church.Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 04:59, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-05-07T04:59:00.000Z","author":"Kokkarani","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kokkarani-2017-05-07T04:59:00.000Z-Oriental_Orthodox_Churches","replies":[],"displayName":"Mandrake_the_Magician"}}-->
Also about your claim of communion---please give any one reference for this. I have gone through the reference you cited. It doesn't say anything about any communion in the reference. If it says so , please quote it here from the reference. ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 05:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-05-07T05:32:00.000Z","author":"Kokkarani","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kokkarani-2017-05-07T05:32:00.000Z-Oriental_Orthodox_Churches","replies":["c-171.48.29.171-2017-05-07T06:04:00.000Z-Kokkarani-2017-05-07T05:32:00.000Z","c-171.48.29.171-2017-05-07T06:10:00.000Z-Kokkarani-2017-05-07T05:32:00.000Z","c-171.48.29.171-2017-05-07T06:22:00.000Z-Kokkarani-2017-05-07T05:32:00.000Z","c-171.48.29.171-2017-05-07T06:41:00.000Z-Kokkarani-2017-05-07T05:32:00.000Z","c-171.48.29.171-2017-05-07T10:22:00.000Z-Kokkarani-2017-05-07T05:32:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Mandrake_the_Magician"}}-->
Another Church follows Oriental Orthodox faith but not part Oriental Orthodox Communion is Antiochian Syriac Orthodox Church in Germany. Similar to Malabar Independent Syrian Church, British Orthodox Church and Antiochian Syriac Orthodox Church there are many other churches also follow Oriental Orthodox faith. But it is not a good idea to list them as part of Oriental Orthodox Side Bar. If really needed, create a separate section in the Oriental Orthodox article and list them out there. ---171.48.29.171 (talk) 10:41, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-05-07T10:41:00.000Z","author":"171.48.29.171","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-171.48.29.171-2017-05-07T10:41:00.000Z-Oriental_Orthodox_Churches","replies":["c-Kokkarani-2017-05-07T15:15:00.000Z-171.48.29.171-2017-05-07T10:41:00.000Z"]}}-->
Whether large or small , all churches which follow the same christology are equal and should be included in the Oriental Orthodoxy portal. Why some people restrict some churches only based the claim that they are auto cephalous or largest among Malankara churches? Is that a fair policy? Thanks.Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 15:25, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-05-07T15:25:00.000Z","author":"Kokkarani","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kokkarani-2017-05-07T15:25:00.000Z-Oriental_Orthodox_Churches","replies":[],"displayName":"Mandrake_the_Magician"}}-->
We could theoretically include all these different subdivisions in the sidebar, but then it would get extremely long and clunky??????. If it is long and clunky to include in this portal , Why these churches are NOT mentioned in the Oriental Orthodoxy article which has good space there ? ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 16:02, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-05-07T16:02:00.000Z","author":"Kokkarani","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kokkarani-2017-05-07T16:02:00.000Z-Oriental_Orthodox_Churches","replies":["c-Ohff-2017-05-07T18:15:00.000Z-Kokkarani-2017-05-07T16:02:00.000Z","c-Kokkarani-2017-05-07T21:56:00.000Z-Kokkarani-2017-05-07T16:02:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Mandrake_the_Magician"}}-->
Dear Kokkarani, Let me give the clarification to your statement "Why some people restrict some churches only based the claim that they are auto cephalous or largest among Malankara churches? Is that a fair policy?". The answer is : It is not 'some people' or 'Wikipedia' is making this 'restriction'. Oriental Orthodox communion is making this restriction. Wikipedia's policy is to simply present the facts. Tomorrow OO communion adds another church into their communion, the very next moment Wikipedia articles will be updated accordingly irrespective of whether the church is autocephalous /autonomous or largest/smallest. Currently only six churches (Coptic,Armenian,Syriac,Ethiopian,Indian(Malankara),Eritrean) are the member churches in OO family. Autonomous bodies/regional entities of this churches can not be count as a separate member as they are part of their mother churches. Thanks - --171.48.29.171 (talk) 22:31, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-05-07T22:31:00.000Z","author":"171.48.29.171","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-171.48.29.171-2017-05-07T22:31:00.000Z-Oriental_Orthodox_Churches","replies":["c-Kokkarani-2017-05-07T22:59:00.000Z-171.48.29.171-2017-05-07T22:31:00.000Z"]}}-->
We are getting too far from the original point. Dear Kokkarani, what precisely do you want? For the Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church and Malabar Independent Syrian Church to be included in this sidebar? Ok, we can do that. They're not autocephalous Churches, but the Jacobite Church is Oriental Orthodox (because it's part of an OO Church), and the Thozhiyoor Church is certainly strongly related to Oriental Orthodoxy (it has ordained bishops for Oriental Orthodox Churches in the past, according to its wiki article). I proposed a compromise already, but I'm not sure if my proposal was understood. I will go ahead and implement it in the sidebar. Ohff (talk) 17:44, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-05-08T17:44:00.000Z","author":"Ohff","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Ohff-2017-05-08T17:44:00.000Z-Compromise?","replies":["c-Ohff-2017-05-08T18:11:00.000Z-Ohff-2017-05-08T17:44:00.000Z","c-Kokkarani-2017-05-09T16:31:00.000Z-Ohff-2017-05-08T17:44:00.000Z"]}}-->
Also the usage of Syriac branches and Malankara branches are not proper. The church listed in Goa is not a Malankara church. So it cannot be listed as Malankara branches. Malankara Jacobite church is a Malankara church as well as a syriac church. It is NOT fair to use Malankara for Malankara Orthodox church as the church constitution stated Malankara church is a division of Syrian church. It is fair to show Malankara Church denoted by Malankara. This is because Malankara church embraced Miaphysite christology in 1665 theoretically. Malankara church branches are-Malnkara Jacobite, Malankara Orthodox and Malabar Independent church. Whether autocephalous, autonomous or independent are secondary. Or we could rename the portal as Oriental orthodox (Miaphysite); so that every is represented fairly and equally. Waiting for your opinion. ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 17:33, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-05-09T17:33:00.000Z","author":"Kokkarani","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kokkarani-2017-05-09T17:33:00.000Z-Compromise?","replies":[],"displayName":"Mandrake_the_Magician"}}-->
New suggestion is: Malankara should be used to denote Malankara church as it embraced Miaphysite christology in 1665 theoritically. Malankara branches are Orthodox, Jacobite and Thozhiyoor church.
There is no point in saying one church is autocephalous and another is autonomous. As per the constitution of Malankara Orthodox church , Malnkara church is a division of Syriac orthodox church and its head is the Patriarch of Antioch. In that case Malankara orthodox a branch of Syriac church. ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 17:56, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-05-09T17:56:00.000Z","author":"Kokkarani","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kokkarani-2017-05-09T17:56:00.000Z-Compromise?","replies":["c-Ohff-2017-05-09T21:45:00.000Z-Kokkarani-2017-05-09T17:56:00.000Z","c-Kokkarani-2017-05-09T23:57:00.000Z-Kokkarani-2017-05-09T17:56:00.000Z","c-Kokkarani-2017-05-10T00:35:00.000Z-Kokkarani-2017-05-09T17:56:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Mandrake_the_Magician"}}-->
orthodoxwiki.org/Oriental_Orthodox for the side bar. I agree to this.Include Malabar Indepenent church also. ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 00:45, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-05-10T00:45:00.000Z","author":"Kokkarani","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kokkarani-2017-05-10T00:45:00.000Z-Compromise?","replies":["c-Ohff-2017-05-10T00:51:00.000Z-Kokkarani-2017-05-10T00:45:00.000Z","c-Kokkarani-2017-05-10T01:16:00.000Z-Kokkarani-2017-05-10T00:45:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Mandrake_the_Magician"}}-->
Autocephalous Churches-
Armenian | Alexandrian | Ethiopian | Syrian | Indian | Eritrean
Autonomous Churches-
Armenian: Cilician | Jerusalem | Constantinople
Alexandrian: Britain
Antioch: Malankara Jacobite
Independent Churches-
Malabar Independent Syrian Church
ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 02:46, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-05-10T02:46:00.000Z","author":"Kokkarani","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kokkarani-2017-05-10T02:46:00.000Z-Compromise?","replies":[],"displayName":"Mandrake_the_Magician"}}-->
Since Malankara Orthodox church is also called as Indian Orthodox church, it is apt to use Indian notation. ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 02:55, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-05-10T02:55:00.000Z","author":"Kokkarani","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kokkarani-2017-05-10T02:55:00.000Z-Compromise?","replies":["c-Ohff-2017-05-10T03:02:00.000Z-Kokkarani-2017-05-10T02:55:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Mandrake_the_Magician"}}-->
Please see my suggestions: 1. Need to add Malankara in bracket for Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church reference in the sidebar . That is what I meant. It should be Indian(Malankara). Not good to remove the official name of a member church in OO communion. 2. Do not make any changes in appearance for coptic,ethiopean, armenian, eritrean, indian(malankara) churches in the template. Names of these churches should be displayed below heading0 = Oriental Orthodox Churches
Oriental Orthodox Churches Coptic.Ethiopian.Armenian.Syriac.Eritrean.Indian(Malankara)
3.In Subdivisions section,
Autonomous Churches: Coptic : French Armenian: Cilicia, Constantinople, Jerusalem Syriac: Malankara Jacobite Independent Churches: Malabar Independent, xyz, abc
Thanks - --122.172.248.47 (talk) 20:17, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-05-10T20:17:00.000Z","author":"122.172.248.47","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-122.172.248.47-2017-05-10T20:17:00.000Z-Compromise?","replies":["c-Ohff-2017-05-11T07:08:00.000Z-122.172.248.47-2017-05-10T20:17:00.000Z"]}}-->
Ohff, I am still in doubt whether we need to list out the churches which are not in communion with the mainstream churches in Oriental Orthodoxy. Because all the references which I read clearly says Oriental Orthodox is a communion of six Churches - Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopian, Syriac, Eritrean,Indian(Malankara). Please go through these links too: 1, 2, 3, 4. Anyway, I am leaving this for your decision. One another thing I would like to highlight is classifying churches which are not in communion with Oriental Orthodox family as "Independent"- This will lead to another confusion because all OO churches (Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopian, Syriac, Eritrean,Indian) are independent (but in communion with each other)!!. Hence If we are planning to list the churches which are not in communion with OO family, we need to find a different term to categorize them, not as "Independent". Anonym---122.167.154.137 (talk) 21:12, 14 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-05-14T21:12:00.000Z","author":"122.167.154.137","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-122.167.154.137-2017-05-14T21:12:00.000Z-Compromise?","replies":[]}}-->
Ohff, It has been more than a month we are waiting to conclude this topic. I am making following changes in the side bar as I mentioned before 1)In subdivision section, under "Autonomous churches" a) changing "Autonomous and independent churches grouped by tradition" to "Autonomous" churches. Reason is all the autocephalous oriental orthodox churches are hierarchically independent. b) "Malankra: Jacobite, Malabar " to "Syriac: "Malankara Jacobite" 2)Removing Malabar Independent Church from the template, let us first get a proper reference that Malabar Independent church follows oriental orthodoxy. Then will think, in which category we can include this church. Thanks -122.166.183.164 (talk) 18:55, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-06-24T18:55:00.000Z","author":"122.166.183.164","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-122.166.183.164-2017-06-24T18:55:00.000Z-Compromise?","replies":["c-Ohff-2017-06-25T07:04:00.000Z-122.166.183.164-2017-06-24T18:55:00.000Z"]}}-->
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