This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Aviation: Accidents This template is within the scope of the Aviation WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.AviationWikipedia:WikiProject AviationTemplate:WikiProject Aviationaviation This template is supported by the Aviation accident project.

Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

This page has archives. Sections older than 28 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present.

Moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aviation § Post-RfC discussion

 – Aviationwikiflight (talk) 11:09, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241201110900","author":"Aviationwikiflight","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Aviationwikiflight-20241201110900-Post-RfC_discussion","replies":[]}}-->

Now that we've got a consensus on what to do with listing the causes in the aircraft occurrence infoboxes, I would like to propose that we should do a project to clean up the summaries. Any thoughts or objections? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 04:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241120043100","author":"Sjones23","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sjones23-20241120043100-Post-RfC_discussion","replies":["c-DonFB-20241120052500-Sjones23-20241120043100"],"displayName":"Lord Sjones23"}}-->

I will participate. Before we start, and given that RFC consensus says cause is to be included in the Infobox Summary, I think we should edit the Aircraft Occurrence template Documentation so the explanation of the Summary parameter explicitly says (something like): "Brief statement of the event and cause". DonFB (talk) 05:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241120052500","author":"DonFB","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-DonFB-20241120052500-Sjones23-20241120043100","replies":["c-Deeday-UK-20241120093100-DonFB-20241120052500"]}}-->

DonFB, the consensus is not that "cause is to be included". The RfC closure comment says that causes may be included, "provided they are suitably brief and due weight is followed", and I think it's a fair summary of the discussion. The Aircraft Occurrence template documentation should reflect that, if anything (and the documentation itself doesn't have to be brief, mind you; we can spend as many words as needed to explain the above). --Deeday-UK (talk) 09:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241120093100","author":"Deeday-UK","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Deeday-UK-20241120093100-DonFB-20241120052500","replies":["c-DonFB-20241120112600-Deeday-UK-20241120093100"]}}-->

All right. How about: "Brief statement of the event, which may include the cause" (or: "...include the causes"). Or would you like to propose wording? DonFB (talk) 11:26, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241120112600","author":"DonFB","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-DonFB-20241120112600-Deeday-UK-20241120093100","replies":["c-Carguychris-20241120195000-DonFB-20241120112600"]}}-->

How about: Brief explanation of the event, including a plain-language explanation of the primary cause, if one has been identified. "Crashed into mountain due to pilot error" is better than "CFIT into rising terrain due to poor CRM after descending below glideslope in IMC while attempting to diagnose intermittent blanking of first officer's PFD". Carguychris (talk) 19:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241120195000","author":"Carguychris","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Carguychris-20241120195000-DonFB-20241120112600","replies":["c-DonFB-20241120215800-Carguychris-20241120195000"]}}-->

Lol. Works for me. DonFB (talk) 21:58, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241120215800","author":"DonFB","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-DonFB-20241120215800-Carguychris-20241120195000","replies":[]}}-->

No: it's neither a statement nor an explanation; it's a summary. Expanding on the current description, and based on the RfC closing comment, we could say "Brief factual summary of the occurrence. It may include causes, provided the result is suitably brief, neutral, and follows due weight. --Deeday-UK (talk) 22:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241120222500","author":"Deeday-UK","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Deeday-UK-20241120222500-Post-RfC_discussion","replies":["c-DonFB-20241120224900-Deeday-UK-20241120222500"]}}-->

Do we need to say "factual"? DonFB (talk) 22:49, 20 November 2024 (UTC) And "neutral"? I'm also a bit mystified by the mention of "due weight". What information in a brief accident summary would be "undue" in the meaning of that term in Wikipedia? DonFB (talk) 22:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241120224900","author":"DonFB","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-DonFB-20241120224900-Deeday-UK-20241120222500","replies":["c-Sjones23-20241121212200-DonFB-20241120224900"]}}-->

Maybe you can check our neutral point of view policy? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:22, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241121212200","author":"Sjones23","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Sjones23-20241121212200-DonFB-20241120224900","replies":["c-DonFB-20241121221000-Sjones23-20241121212200"],"displayName":"Lord Sjones23"}}-->

Sure, but it seems superfluous and condescending to tell users in template documentation that they must be factual and neutral, practices thoroughly embedded in site policies which editors almost certainly know if they're sophisticated enough to be examining a template.

Suggested:

"Brief summary of the occurrence that may include causes." DonFB (talk) 22:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241121221000","author":"DonFB","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-DonFB-20241121221000-Sjones23-20241121212200","replies":["c-Deeday-UK-20241122131400-DonFB-20241121221000"]}}-->

"Factual" should stay: it means the summary should stick to ascertained facts and not include speculation (e.g. about causes, motives etc). As for neutral and due weight, it means that the inclusion of causes must result in a neutral, balanced statement. For example, citing only pilot error when two other causal factors are cited in reliable sources means not giving those two factors their due weight, and that results in a non-neutral summary of events.

The above can well be mentioned in the Summary field's explanatory note in the template doc, of course: the summary itselft needs to be brief, the explanatory note doesn't. --Deeday-UK (talk) 13:14, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241122131400","author":"Deeday-UK","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Deeday-UK-20241122131400-DonFB-20241121221000","replies":["c-DonFB-20241122200500-Deeday-UK-20241122131400"]}}-->

I would simply point out that factual, neutral and due weight are already basic requirements, per Policy, for any text in the encyclopedia. I see no need to repeat them here. Do you believe it's necessary to say "brief" twice in Summary instructions: "Brief factual summary of the occurrence....provided the result is suitably brief"? DonFB (talk) 20:05, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241122200500","author":"DonFB","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-DonFB-20241122200500-Deeday-UK-20241122131400","replies":["c-Deeday-UK-20241123105700-DonFB-20241122200500"]}}-->

Where is the harm in using a word twice in the same paragraph? Where is the value in making an explanation as short as possible, relying on the assumption that the reader is already familiar with the general policies? You seem to be confusing encyclopedia articles with encyclopedia guidelines: the requirement for conciseness applies only to the former. For the latter, clarity of instructions is rather the overriding requirement, and if it takes a few more words to achieve that, where is the problem? -- Deeday-UK (talk) 10:57, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241123105700","author":"Deeday-UK","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Deeday-UK-20241123105700-DonFB-20241122200500","replies":["c-DonFB-20241124034300-Deeday-UK-20241123105700"]}}-->

It strikes me a little like Templating The Regulars. But let's move on and add the RFC-endorsed instruction to the template's Summary parameter explanation, so we can modify the Summary in articles where needed. DonFB (talk) 03:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241124034300","author":"DonFB","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-DonFB-20241124034300-Deeday-UK-20241123105700","replies":["c-Sjones23-20241125072600-DonFB-20241124034300"]}}-->

That could work. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 07:26, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241125072600","author":"Sjones23","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-Sjones23-20241125072600-DonFB-20241124034300","replies":[],"displayName":"Lord Sjones23"}}-->

A few days ago, DonFB (talk · contribs) suggested we should implement the RFC-endorsed instruction regarding the summaries to the template documentation. I've gone ahead and done so. Please feel free to update and expand on it as necessary. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 09:18, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241201091800","author":"Sjones23","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sjones23-20241201091800-Post-RfC_discussion","replies":["c-Deeday-UK-20241201101700-Sjones23-20241201091800"],"displayName":"Lord Sjones23"}}-->

Now expanded for maximum clarity to the version that was broadly agreed upon. --Deeday-UK (talk) 10:17, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241201101700","author":"Deeday-UK","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Deeday-UK-20241201101700-Sjones23-20241201091800","replies":[]}}-->

To formalise the proposal set out by user Tô Ngọc Khang in the above "plane1" discussion, the idea is to go from this typical usage (taking TransAsia Airways Flight 235 as an example, changing one image for copyright reasons):

TransAsia Airways Flight 235

Wreckage from Flight 235
Accident
Date	4 February 2015 (2015-02-04)
Summary	Loss of control and crash following pilot misidentification of failed engine
Site	Keelung River, Taipei, Taiwan 25°03′48″N 121°37′04″E / 25.06333°N 121.61778°E / 25.06333; 121.61778
Total fatalities	43
Total injuries	17
Aircraft
Aircraft type	ATR 72-600
Operator	TransAsia Airways
IATA flight No.	GE235G
ICAO flight No.	TNA235
Call sign	TRANSASIA 235
Registration	B-22816
Flight origin	Taipei Songshan Airport, Songshan, Taipei, Taiwan
Destination	Kinmen Airport, Kinmen
Occupants	58
Passengers	53
Crew	5
Fatalities	43
Injuries	15
Survivors	15
Ground casualties
Ground injuries	2

To this usage:

TransAsia Airways Flight 235

Wreckage from Flight 235
Accident
Date	4 February 2015 (2015-02-04)
Summary	Loss of control and crash following pilot misidentification of failed engine
Site	Keelung River, Taipei, Taiwan 25°03′48″N 121°37′04″E / 25.06333°N 121.61778°E / 25.06333; 121.61778
Total fatalities	43
Total injuries	17
Aircraft
B-22816, the ATR-72 involved, photographed in January 2015
Aircraft type	ATR 72-600
Operator	TransAsia Airways
IATA flight No.	GE235G
ICAO flight No.	TNA235
Call sign	TRANSASIA 235
Registration	B-22816
Flight origin	Taipei Songshan Airport, Songshan, Taipei, Taiwan
Destination	Kinmen Airport, Kinmen
Occupants	58
Passengers	53
Crew	5
Fatalities	43
Injuries	15
Survivors	15
Ground casualties
Ground injuries	2

Specifically, the guidelines would be as follows:

• Whenever the top infobox image depicts the accident itself, crash site, or wreckage (which is the preferred option, if available, according to current template guidelines), a pre-accident image of the aircraft involved in the occurrence (if available, or of another example of the same aircraft type) can be placed inside the infobox by using the plane1_image= parameter (so far used only for multi-aircraft occurrences).
• If the top infobox image is already an ordinary, pre-accident image of the accident aircraft (or of another example of the same aircraft type) then no additional images of the same or similar aircraft should be included in the infobox. That is no second pictures of the aircraft in a previous livery in the infobox, or similar duplication.

Admittedly, this new usage of plane1_image= would apply only to a minority of articles (as pictures of accidents or wreckages are often not available), but in those cases the result would look a lot neater and more logical, with the image of the aircraft placed right where the data about it is given.

What do people think? -- Deeday-UK (talk) 11:25, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241208112500","author":"Deeday-UK","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Deeday-UK-20241208112500-Bringing_the_aircraft_picture_inside_the_infobox_(in_some_cases)","replies":["c-T\u00f4_Ng\u1ecdc_Khang-20241210055600-Deeday-UK-20241208112500","c-T\u00f4_Ng\u1ecdc_Khang-20241214123000-Deeday-UK-20241208112500","c-Aviationwikiflight-20241226155900-Deeday-UK-20241208112500","c-The_Bushranger-20241229052900-Deeday-UK-20241208112500","c-T\u00f4_Ng\u1ecdc_Khang-20241230132200-Deeday-UK-20241208112500"]}}-->

This is an example for using plane1 with photo of aircraft involved in service with a previous operator (if you don't have photo of the aircraft involved with a current operator). Tô Ngọc Khang (talk) 05:56, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241210055600","author":"T\u00f4 Ng\u1ecdc Khang","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-T\u00f4_Ng\u1ecdc_Khang-20241210055600-Deeday-UK-20241208112500","replies":["c-Deeday-UK-20241210115200-T\u00f4_Ng\u1ecdc_Khang-20241210055600"]}}-->

@Tô Ngọc Khang, that's a great example of what this proposal is not about. In your example, the top image already depicts the accident aircraft (or a similar one) in ordinary service before the accident. We don't need a second picture of the same or similar aircraft in ordinary, pre-accident conditions, either with the same or with previous operators. It is debatable whether such additional images even belong to the article in the first place (or belong instead to some plane-spotting website), let alone to the infobox. -- Deeday-UK (talk) 11:52, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241210115200","author":"Deeday-UK","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Deeday-UK-20241210115200-T\u00f4_Ng\u1ecdc_Khang-20241210055600","replies":[]}}-->

@Ivebeenhacked@Aviationwikiflight@Dual Freq@Krd@RecycledPixels@Midori No Sora@Maungapohatu Tô Ngọc Khang (talk) 12:30, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241214123000","author":"T\u00f4 Ng\u1ecdc Khang","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-T\u00f4_Ng\u1ecdc_Khang-20241214123000-Deeday-UK-20241208112500","replies":["c-Ivebeenhacked-20241215010200-T\u00f4_Ng\u1ecdc_Khang-20241214123000"]}}-->

Yes? Whatsup? Hacked (Talk|Contribs) 01:02, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241215010200","author":"Ivebeenhacked","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Ivebeenhacked-20241215010200-T\u00f4_Ng\u1ecdc_Khang-20241214123000","replies":[],"displayName":"Hacked"}}-->

• Support proposal. I agree that the placement of the images would be much neater if they were arranged in the proposed format. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 15:59, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241226155900","author":"Aviationwikiflight","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Aviationwikiflight-20241226155900-Deeday-UK-20241208112500","replies":[]}}-->
• Support proposal. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241229052900","author":"The Bushranger","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-The_Bushranger-20241229052900-Deeday-UK-20241208112500","replies":[]}}-->

@Maungapohatu, @Midori No Sora and @Dual Freq Tô Ngọc Khang (talk) 13:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241230132200","author":"T\u00f4 Ng\u1ecdc Khang","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-T\u00f4_Ng\u1ecdc_Khang-20241230132200-Deeday-UK-20241208112500","replies":[]}}-->

The doc says that occurrence_type is one of "Accident", "Hijacking" or "Occurrence". But Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 says "Shootdown". Can you actually put anything you want in here? Should we document "Shootdown"? This is likely to become a question at Azerbaijan Airlines Flight 8243. This was last discussed in March 2009 but no conclusion was reached. GA-RT-22 (talk) 20:28, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241227202800","author":"GA-RT-22","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-GA-RT-22-20241227202800-occurrence_type_possible_values","replies":["c-Awdqmb-20241228004500-GA-RT-22-20241227202800","c-Awdqmb-20241228004800-GA-RT-22-20241227202800"]}}-->

Comments I wonder why we need to show the type of the occurrence? That most readers don't need to know, right? So here's my suggest: simply change it to a fixed Summary. After all we have a dedicated value of the real summary of the occurrence. Awdqmb (talk) 00:45, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241228004500","author":"Awdqmb","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Awdqmb-20241228004500-GA-RT-22-20241227202800","replies":[]}}-->

Just a small addition: If that's an Hijacking, we can simply write on "Summary" values, so as the shootdown, which we have done in all pages using the infobox. So I think it's simply no need to show it. And in the other hand, most readers also have no need to know if it's an "accident" or "incident" in ICAO aviation accident & incident category. Awdqmb (talk) 00:48, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241228004800","author":"Awdqmb","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Awdqmb-20241228004800-GA-RT-22-20241227202800","replies":[]}}-->