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This flag is not the Flag of Northern Ireland.--padraig 15:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-08T15:43:00.000Z","author":"Padraig","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Padraig-2007-08-08T15:43:00.000Z-Ulster_Banner","replies":["c-Astrotrain-2007-08-08T16:03:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-08-08T15:43:00.000Z"]}}-->

That is not what the flagicon says. Astrotrain 16:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-08T16:03:00.000Z","author":"Astrotrain","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Astrotrain-2007-08-08T16:03:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-08-08T15:43:00.000Z","replies":["c-Padraig-2007-08-08T16:05:00.000Z-Astrotrain-2007-08-08T16:03:00.000Z"]}}-->

As you are well aware that flagicon was intended for use in sports articles, you are also aware that the Ulster Banner is not a current national flag, therefore you are edit warring to WP:POINT.--padraig 16:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-08T16:05:00.000Z","author":"Padraig","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Padraig-2007-08-08T16:05:00.000Z-Astrotrain-2007-08-08T16:03:00.000Z","replies":["c-Biofoundationsoflanguage-2007-08-08T16:40:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-08-08T16:05:00.000Z"]}}-->

That is your opinion that it is not the national flag of Northern Ireland. Flags are used out of convention and the convention still remains strong in Northern Ireland. You are aware of how the debate is going on talk:Northern Ireland, and it is not in your favour. Please stop removing the flag unless you have consensus to do so. Biofoundationsoflanguage 16:40, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-08T16:40:00.000Z","author":"Biofoundationsoflanguage","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Biofoundationsoflanguage-2007-08-08T16:40:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-08-08T16:05:00.000Z","replies":["c-Padraig-2007-08-10T12:58:00.000Z-Biofoundationsoflanguage-2007-08-08T16:40:00.000Z"]}}-->

It is the opinion of the British Government and also the Northern Ireland Executive, and I think they should know if this flag is representative of Northern Ireland or not, and they say NO.--padraig 12:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-10T12:58:00.000Z","author":"Padraig","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Padraig-2007-08-10T12:58:00.000Z-Biofoundationsoflanguage-2007-08-08T16:40:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Where has this idea that "flagicon was intended for use in sports articles" come from, padraig? The only reference on {{flagicon}} suggests that a variant (that is, something like {{flagicon|Northern Ireland|tiddlywinks}}) might be need for sports-related flags, which seems quite plausible given that national sporting teams often use different flags. Also, bear in mind that specific templates exist for sports usage, such as {{ru}} (rugby union) and {{cr}} (cricket), which suggests that {{flagicon}} is intended for more general usage. — ras52 22:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-10T22:31:00.000Z","author":"Ras52","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Ras52-2007-08-10T22:31:00.000Z-Ulster_Banner","replies":[]}}-->

No specific templates now exist for certain sports because User:Andrwsc has been working very hard to update all the flag icons used in sports, the reason given before that {{NIR}} couldn't be changed is because of it links to all the sports template.--padraig 22:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-10T22:38:00.000Z","author":"Padraig","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Padraig-2007-08-10T22:38:00.000Z-Ulster_Banner","replies":["c-Ras52-2007-08-10T22:50:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-08-10T22:38:00.000Z"]}}-->

This doesn't use {{NIR}}, it uses {{flagicon|Northern Ireland}}. As you haven't (that I have noticed) removed any flags other than the Ulster Banner from this template, I assume you're not against the use of flags in this template in general, just against the UB in particular. In that case, why not leave the article using {{flagicon|Northern Ireland}}, and move the discussion on what flag (if any) that should display to {{Country data Northern Ireland}} and its talk page. As you've noted. most sports templates use {{NIR}} rather than {{flagicon}} directly; that means there's no reason why the country data can't be changed so that {{flagicon}} produces a more neutral flag/image (or none), whilst leaving {{NIR}} hard-coded to display the UB. That way we can keep this argument in one place rather than blitzing around Wikipedia repeating it over and over. As I've said repeatedly, if you get {{flagicon}} changed to display something different, I'll accept that. — ras52 22:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-10T22:50:00.000Z","author":"Ras52","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Ras52-2007-08-10T22:50:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-08-10T22:38:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

{{flagicon}} uses {{NIR}} to produce the flag and text, they are linked.--padraig 22:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-10T22:58:00.000Z","author":"Padraig","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Padraig-2007-08-10T22:58:00.000Z-Ulster_Banner","replies":["c-Ras52-2007-08-10T23:19:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-08-10T22:58:00.000Z"]}}-->

No it doesn't. Look at the source. You have it the wrong way around. {{NIR}} uses {{flag}} which, like {{flagicon}}, uses {{Country data Northern Ireland}}. I'm suggesting that, if a flag change is wanted, {{Country data Northern Ireland}} can be changed to default to some other flag (or none, or a map, or whatever). That means it will propagate through to the other templates. If, however, it's desired that {{NIR}} continues to display the Ulster Banner (for backwards compatibility), that can be done by editing that template because {{NIR}} is specific to NI whereas {{flagicon}} isn't. Does that make sense? Technically, it's a very straightforward change to make. — ras52 23:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-10T23:19:00.000Z","author":"Ras52","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Ras52-2007-08-10T23:19:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-08-10T22:58:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

So, let me repeat: can we leave this template as it is now, using {{flagicon|Northern Ireland}}}, and move the discussion to Template talk:Country data Northern Ireland? That way we have one argument rather than dozens of similar arguments. — ras52 23:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-10T23:29:00.000Z","author":"Ras52","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Ras52-2007-08-10T23:29:00.000Z-Ulster_Banner","replies":["c-Ras52-2007-08-10T23:50:00.000Z-Ras52-2007-08-10T23:29:00.000Z"]}}-->

THat has already been done which ended with this [[1]] but Astrotrain ignores this to insert POV into all templates relating to Northern Ireland.--padraig

Is that a yes or a no? Can we leave this template as it is now, using {{flagicon|Northern Ireland}}}, and move the discussion to Template talk:Country data Northern Ireland? — ras52 23:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-10T23:50:00.000Z","author":"Ras52","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Ras52-2007-08-10T23:50:00.000Z-Ras52-2007-08-10T23:29:00.000Z","replies":["c-Padraig-2007-08-10T23:57:00.000Z-Ras52-2007-08-10T23:50:00.000Z"]}}-->

No leaving this template as it is would be in breach of WP:POV and WP:OR and against WP:Flagcruft, revert this template back without this flagicon, then take it to Template talk:Country data Northern Ireland if you wish, but we shouldn't ignore WP policies, because some editors want to ignore facts.--padraig 23:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-10T23:57:00.000Z","author":"Padraig","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Padraig-2007-08-10T23:57:00.000Z-Ras52-2007-08-10T23:50:00.000Z","replies":["c-Ras52-2007-08-11T00:08:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-08-10T23:57:00.000Z"]}}-->

First, WP:Flagcruft isn't a policy, it's an essay which specifcally doesn't have policy stated. That said, it's a useful source of advice about the use of flags. So is your argument about WP:Flagcruft that we shouldn't use flags at all on this template, or simply that Northern Ireland shouldn't have a flag?

Second, I fail to see what relevance WP:OR has. Can you please be specific about how this template breaches WP:OR.

Third, I don't see how this template can be a breach of WP:POV as this template only uses {{flagicon|Northern Ireland}} which is supposed to display a flag suitable for general usage. Perhaps it doesn't, but if so, that's not a fault with this article; it's a fault with {{tl:Country data Northern Ireland}}, hence my request that the discussion moves there. — ras52 00:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-11T00:08:00.000Z","author":"Ras52","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Ras52-2007-08-11T00:08:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-08-10T23:57:00.000Z","replies":["c-Padraig-2007-08-11T00:19:00.000Z-Ras52-2007-08-11T00:08:00.000Z"]}}-->

The link I give deals specifically with the Ulster banner and how it shouldn't be used to represent Northern Ireland today, if people want to use a flag for Northern Ireland then use the only Official Flag the Union Flag.

WP:OR comes in where user claim that this flag represent Northern Ireland today, they have been as to prove this with sources and have failed to do so, sotheir claims fall under WP:OR and can be removed.

WP:POV is connected to the above, if sources are not provided or claims are disproved as in this case, as neither the British Government or the Northern Ireland Assembly or the Northern Ireland Executive which is the government of Northern Ireland recognise this flag in any form, it isn't Northern Irelands flag, therefore to claim it is is WP:POV.--padraig 00:19, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-11T00:19:00.000Z","author":"Padraig","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Padraig-2007-08-11T00:19:00.000Z-Ras52-2007-08-11T00:08:00.000Z","replies":["c-Ras52-2007-08-11T00:28:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-08-11T00:19:00.000Z"]}}-->

You are utterly missing my point. This template isn't requesting that the UB is displayed. It is requesting that some appropriate flag for NI is displayed (or if that isn't possible, none). If this template directly linked to the UB image, your points would all be valid. But it doesn't. This template uses a neutral {{flagicon}} template. If you don't like what that template does, take it up at at Template talk:Country data Northern Ireland. — ras52 00:28, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-11T00:28:00.000Z","author":"Ras52","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Ras52-2007-08-11T00:28:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-08-11T00:19:00.000Z","replies":["c-Padraig-2007-08-11T00:33:00.000Z-Ras52-2007-08-11T00:28:00.000Z","c-Padraig-2007-08-11T00:37:00.000Z-Ras52-2007-08-11T00:28:00.000Z"]}}-->

Northern Ireland is {{tl:flagicon|Northern Ireland|union}} Northern Ireland why can't that be used.--padraig 00:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-11T00:33:00.000Z","author":"Padraig","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Padraig-2007-08-11T00:33:00.000Z-Ras52-2007-08-11T00:28:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Northern Ireland is {{tl:flagicon|NIR|union}} Northern Ireland which gives the official flag.--padraig 00:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-11T00:37:00.000Z","author":"Padraig","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Padraig-2007-08-11T00:37:00.000Z-Ras52-2007-08-11T00:28:00.000Z","replies":["c-Padraig-2007-08-11T00:52:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-08-11T00:37:00.000Z"]}}-->

Very simple. The Union Flag doesn't just represent Northern Ireland, it represents the whole of the United Kingdom (including NI). As this is about subdivisions of the UK, all of them could be represented by the Union Flag which would defeat the point of having flags at all as no-one is going to see the Union Flag and think, "ah ha, that must be Northern Irish section". — ras52

Then remove all the flags as the Union Flag is already in the title of the template so sub-national flags are not required.--padraig 00:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-11T00:52:00.000Z","author":"Padraig","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-Padraig-2007-08-11T00:52:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-08-11T00:37:00.000Z","replies":["c-Astrotrain-2007-08-14T19:04:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-08-11T00:52:00.000Z"]}}-->

Users prefer flag images as these give colour and life to the templates Astrotrain 19:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-14T19:04:00.000Z","author":"Astrotrain","type":"comment","level":12,"id":"c-Astrotrain-2007-08-14T19:04:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-08-11T00:52:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

This seems to be going nowhere. I have requested mediation in an effort to get this whole argument moved elsewhere and to stop this same topic repeatedly occurring throughout Wikipedia. — ras52 01:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-11T01:33:00.000Z","author":"Ras52","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Ras52-2007-08-11T01:33:00.000Z-Ulster_Banner","replies":[]}}-->

This has now been filed for mediation Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Template:UK subdivisions.--padraig 13:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-08-28T13:33:00.000Z","author":"Padraig","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Padraig-2007-08-28T13:33:00.000Z-Ulster_Banner","replies":[]}}-->

I don't know what these are supposed to refer to but I have never heard of them being used in Northern Ireland, we have Counties and the Districts which are used in local government.--Padraig (talk) 18:30, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-12-29T18:30:00.000Z","author":"Padraig","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Padraig-2007-12-29T18:30:00.000Z-Lieutenancy_areas","replies":["c-MRSC-2007-12-29T18:46:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-12-29T18:30:00.000Z"]}}-->

They are the areas that appoint a Lord Lieutenant. The linked article Counties of Northern Ireland does explain they are the Counties of Northern Ireland plus Belfast and Londonderry. MRSC • Talk 18:46, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-12-29T18:46:00.000Z","author":"MRSC","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-MRSC-2007-12-29T18:46:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-12-29T18:30:00.000Z","replies":["c-Padraig-2007-12-29T19:14:00.000Z-MRSC-2007-12-29T18:46:00.000Z"]}}-->

The link goes to Counties of Northern Ireland nowhere on that article is there any mention of Lieutenancy areas, the only divisions used in Northern Ireland are the traditional counties and the 26 District council areas, so please explain what they are and what role do they play. Maybe they are unique to other parts of the UK, but not in Northern Ireland. So provide a RS to justify your inclusion of the term in the template.--Padraig (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-12-29T19:14:00.000Z","author":"Padraig","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Padraig-2007-12-29T19:14:00.000Z-MRSC-2007-12-29T18:46:00.000Z","replies":["c-MRSC-2007-12-29T19:23:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-12-29T19:14:00.000Z"]}}-->

Within Counties of Northern Ireland the article reads The six administrative counties and two county-boroughs remain in use for some purposes, including Lords Lieutenant and number plates. MRSC • Talk 19:23, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-12-29T19:23:00.000Z","author":"MRSC","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-MRSC-2007-12-29T19:23:00.000Z-Padraig-2007-12-29T19:14:00.000Z","replies":["c-Ras52-2007-12-29T22:17:00.000Z-MRSC-2007-12-29T19:23:00.000Z"]}}-->

Certainly for England, and perhaps for Northern Ireland too, the "Lieutenancy areas" are the things commonly called counties. In England, we have administrative counties and ceremonial counties. As the name suggests, for most purposes, administrative counties are what counts; however, in urban areas, they don't remotely correspond to what people generally consider a county to be. For example, each of the 32 London boroughs is an administrative county by virtue of being a unitary authority; yet most people don't consider Lewisham, Croydon or Newham to be counties. Ceremonial counties much closer to the popular idea of a county: basically, they are the post-1972 counties with a few modifications (e.g. the addition of the East Riding of Yorkshire, and the replacement of Avon with a much smaller Bristol). Ceremonial counties are almost identical to Lieutenancy areas. (There used to a few minor differences, but I'm not aware of any that survive.) Fundamentally the confusion exists because of the huge extent to which English counties have been repeatedly altered over the last 35 years. Personally I'm not keen on the use of the term "Lieutenancy areas" and would prefer to just say "Counties", or, if we want to be exact, "Ceremonial Counties". — ras52 (talk) 22:17, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-12-29T22:17:00.000Z","author":"Ras52","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Ras52-2007-12-29T22:17:00.000Z-MRSC-2007-12-29T19:23:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->