I do not want to see this article deleted, and would now like to have the "orphan" designation deleted. I apologize for all the changes, and deletions. I had to learn rather quickly, by trial and error, since the article was up for deletion I seized the opportunity to salavage it.
This article is filled with POV statements and original research. While the Treaty Party and the Treaty of 1866 are extremely well documented, the connections of the Treaty Party and the 19th century Cherokee Nation to this particular state-recognized group are not established by reliable references in this article. This group is definitely not the extact same as the Overhill Cherokee or Chickamauga Cherokee. -Uyvsdi (talk) 01:06, 14 January 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-01-14T01:06:00.000Z","author":"Uyvsdi","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Uyvsdi-2011-01-14T01:06:00.000Z-POV_and_OR","replies":[]}}-->
Uyvsdi,
I found a source in the New World Encyclopedia that ties the Southern Cherokee to The Treaty party. It should be a verifiable source. I have since removed any mention Chickamauga or Over Hill Cherokee. I also put qualifier (they claim) in the opening sentance that initially talks about the Treaty party. Although, the New World Encyclopedia states the Southern Cherokee are descendents. 76.121.154.140 (talk) 07:10, 18 January 2011 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-01-18T07:10:00.000Z","author":"76.121.154.140","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-76.121.154.140-2011-01-18T07:10:00.000Z-POV_and_OR","replies":[]}}-->
I thought I had removed the objectionable sentances, reworded in some cases, and added more citations. What is wrong with the citations, please be specific. Just to say they are not verifible when in fact the sources are from legitimate sources such as journals, published books and PDF files is not making much sense. In some cases documents were referenced that are on file in museums, the Library, etc. I will wait for your response. ~PB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.154.140 (talk) 08:20, 15 January 2011 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-01-15T08:20:00.000Z","author":"76.121.154.140","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-76.121.154.140-2011-01-15T08:20:00.000Z-POV_and_OR_2","replies":[]}}-->
1) The below listed statement does not imply that The Southern Cherokee Nation of Kentucky is actively involved in (NAGPRA, but rather is supportive of this act:
"The Southern Cherokee maintain guardianship over the mounds Pursuant to the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA) of 1990."
The fact that the The SCNK protects the mounds is a notable deed. In otherwords, they are advocates of the Act itself (pursuant merely means I/A/W). I can reword that to make it clearer.
2) The CNO clearly states otherwise, so please read. Although, the CNO's appeal does mention Article 5. I will change the article to reflect 7 & 4, as thay are better Articles. The treaty was consistently breached by hostile Pin Cherokee factions (The Ross Faction), and by the U.S. Army's inability to protect the the Southern Cherokee.
"As the following statement from the 1866 Report explains, Congress and the Nation intended Articles 7 and 4 to protect the "Southern Cherokees" who had held slaves, not the former slaves themselves": (and it goes from there) (see my citations), Cause No. 07-5024, United States Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit, Corrected & Final Initial Brief of Appealant Cherokee Nation, pp. 27 & 28.
http://turtletalk.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/cherokee-appellant-brief.pdf
3) No veritable connection? Kentucky past Governor John Y. Brown(former CSA Col) welcomed and recognized the Southern Cherokee Nation to the State of Kentucky in 1893.
4) Kentucky is traditional Cherokee territory (provable on maps), and that Cherokee were still living there at the time of the removal in 1838. There were also two waves of Cherokee that came through western Kentucky on the Trail Tears numbering in the thousands. The winter of 1838 was extremely harsh and the Mississippi was frozen over, so they took shelter at Mantle Rock in Livingston Kentucky. A lot of them also took shelter in caves, or just hid out until after the Trail of Tears. Kentucky has one the largest cave systems in the world with a large portion of is contained within the Green River area (Mammoth Cave). The Southern Cherokee Nation arrived in Kentucky from Indian Territory in the winter of 1871. One has to wonder if the Southern Cherokee sought out people linguistcally and culturally the same. I believe it appropriate to point out (in the article) that the Southern Cherokee relocated in an area of Kentucky rich in Native American heritage (Cherokee).
5) Finally, you made mention of Indianz.com, which is hardly an unbiased discussion board. Like Chuck's comments it carries no weight with the unbiased Wikipedia, and causes me to question your motives. However, constructive criticism is always helpful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.154.140 (talk) 19:40, 16 January 2011 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-01-16T19:40:00.000Z","author":"76.121.154.140","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-76.121.154.140-2011-01-16T19:40:00.000Z-Legitimate_Article","replies":["c-Uyvsdi-2011-01-16T20:20:00.000Z-76.121.154.140-2011-01-16T19:40:00.000Z","c-76.121.154.140-2011-01-16T21:55:00.000Z-76.121.154.140-2011-01-16T19:40:00.000Z"]}}-->
I deleted the Hoax tag because by the amount of effort being put into the article by 76.121.154.140 he is clearly not intending to hoax anyone. As for truthfulness, whatever the factual accuracy or the interpretation of events, to say the article is being untruthful implies that 76.121.154.140 is deliberately falsifying the facts. Given the amount of discussion above it is clearly a matter of interpretation, which can be resolved, and not a matter of personal integrity. MarkDask 08:08, 17 January 2011 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-01-17T08:08:00.000Z","author":"Markdask","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Markdask-2011-01-17T08:08:00.000Z-Not_a_hoax","replies":["c-Natty4bumpo-2011-01-17T22:01:00.000Z-Markdask-2011-01-17T08:08:00.000Z","c-Natty4bumpo-2011-01-17T22:04:00.000Z-Markdask-2011-01-17T08:08:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Mark"}}-->
Having said that, I would prefer working with Uyvsdi as he is at the very least honest, and I believe open minded. Uyvsdi, what do we do to get the tags taken off, and publish? What edits do you have in mind? It is not my intention to hoodwink anyone. 76.121.154.140 (talk) 02:30, 19 January 2011 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-01-19T02:30:00.000Z","author":"76.121.154.140","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-76.121.154.140-2011-01-19T02:30:00.000Z-Not_a_hoax","replies":[]}}-->
The Notability guidlines are:
"Neutral point of view, Verifiability, No original research, What Wikipedia is not, and Biographies of living persons. I also read that being famous is not the same as notabilty, but is a help. Chuck's definition of "notability" is different from the Wikipedia. He defines the terms to his own liking, and ignores the intent of the Wikipedia (deception), just like his use of the word hoax.
The part that confuses me: The term "original research" refers to "material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and stories—not already published by reliable sources". Everything I listed has been previously published, and appears reliable. Who makes that decision? Can just anyone call into question the citations and do a major overhaul on an article, such as self proclaimed experts with no formal education in the subject matter. Is there an appeal process that can be followed?
On the subject of being neutral: A neutral point of view means being fair. When you make mention of a list that has all State recognized tribes listed on it as frauds, how fair is that? When you edit the article can you be fair? Do you have neutral point of view? 76.121.154.140 (talk) 03:49, 19 January 2011 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-01-19T03:49:00.000Z","author":"76.121.154.140","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-76.121.154.140-2011-01-19T03:49:00.000Z-Not_a_hoax","replies":[]}}-->
FYI - "Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks do not help make a point; they only hurt the Wikipedia community and deter users from helping to create a good encyclopedia. Derogatory comments about another contributor may be removed by any editor. Repeated or egregious personal attacks may lead to blocks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.154.140 (talk) 04:26, 19 January 2011 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-01-19T04:26:00.000Z","author":"76.121.154.140","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-76.121.154.140-2011-01-19T04:26:00.000Z-Not_a_hoax","replies":[]}}-->
Harassment is defined as a pattern of offensive behavior that appears to a reasonable observer to have the purpose of adversely affecting a targeted person or persons, usually (but not always) for the purpose of threatening or intimidating the primary target. The intended outcome may be to make editing Wikipedia unpleasant for the target, to undermine them, to frighten them, or to discourage them from editing entirely. 76.121.154.140 (talk) 04:40, 19 January 2011 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-01-19T04:40:00.000Z","author":"76.121.154.140","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-76.121.154.140-2011-01-19T04:40:00.000Z-Not_a_hoax","replies":[]}}-->
Wikipedia is not a battlegroundPolicy shortcuts: WP:NOTBATTLE WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND WP:NOTFACTIONS
See also: Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not about winning Wikipedia is not a place to hold grudges, import personal conflicts, carry on ideological battles, or nurture prejudice, hatred, or fear. Making personal battles out of Wikipedia discussions goes directly against our policies and goals. In addition to avoiding battles in discussions, do not make changes to content or policies just to prove a point to someone with whom you disagree.
Every user is expected to interact with others civilly, calmly, and in a spirit of cooperation. Do not insult, harass, or intimidate those with whom you have a disagreement. Rather, approach the matter intelligently and engage in polite discussion. If another user behaves in an uncivil, uncooperative, or insulting manner, or even tries to harass or intimidate you, this does not give you an excuse to respond in kind. Address only the factual points brought forward, ignoring the inappropriate comments, or disregard that user entirely. If necessary, point out gently that you think the comments might be considered uncivil, and make it clear that you want to move on and focus on the content issue. If a conflict continues to bother you, take advantage of Wikipedia's dispute resolution process. There are always users willing to mediate and arbitrate disputes between others.
In large disputes, resist the urge to turn Wikipedia into a battleground between factions. Assume good faith that every editor and group is here to improve Wikipedia— especially if they hold a point of view with which you disagree. Work with whomever you like, but do not organize a faction with the main goal of disrupting Wikipedia’s fundamental decision–making process, which is based on building a consensus. Editors in large disputes should work in good faith to find broad principles of agreement between different viewpoints.
Do not use Wikipedia to make legal or other threats against Wikipedia, Wikipedians, or the Wikimedia Foundation: other means already exist to communicate legal problems.[6] Threats are not tolerated and may result in a ban. 76.121.154.140 (talk) 05:23, 19 January 2011 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-01-19T05:23:00.000Z","author":"76.121.154.140","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-76.121.154.140-2011-01-19T05:23:00.000Z-Not_a_hoax","replies":[]}}-->
Just so others are clear on my position - I think this article should encompass a description of who these people are, what they claim and some historical info on which their claim is based. That much makes it an interesting and informative article for those like me who know little about Native America. I certainly agree this article should not seek to promote the claim - that aint encyclopedic. I am surprised that such a simple article should prove so elusive for three individuals who know the subject. MarkDask 05:42, 19 January 2011 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-01-19T05:42:00.000Z","author":"Markdask","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Markdask-2011-01-19T05:42:00.000Z-Simplify","replies":["c-76.121.154.140-2011-01-19T06:38:00.000Z-Markdask-2011-01-19T05:42:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Mark"}}-->
Reasons for deletion See also: Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion Policy shortcut: WP:DEL#REASON
Reasons for deletion include, but are not limited to, the following (subject to the condition that improvement or deletion of an offending section, if practical, is preferable to deletion of an entire page):
Copyright violations and other material violating Wikipedia's non-free content criteria Vandalism, including inflammatory redirects, pages that exist only to disparage their subject, patent nonsense, or gibberish Advertising or other spam without relevant content (but not an article about an advertising-related subject) Content forks (unless a merger or redirect is appropriate) Articles that cannot possibly be attributed to reliable sources, including neologisms, original theories and conclusions, and articles that are themselves hoaxes (but not articles describing notable hoaxes) Articles for which thorough attempts to find reliable sources to verify them have failed Articles whose subjects fail to meet the relevant notability guideline (WP:N, WP:BIO, WP:MUSIC, WP:CORP and so forth) Articles that breach Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons Redundant or otherwise useless templates Categories representing overcategorization Files that are unused, obsolete, or violate the Non-free policy Any other use of the article, template, project, or user namespace that is contrary to the established separate policy for that namespace. Any other content not suitable for an encyclopedia
I see no reason for this article to be up for deletion, it did not fit the definition for a hoax as indicated above, or any of the other category for that matter. The article should have never been up for deletion to begin with. The criteria above should have been reviewed, before it was allowed to go up for discussion the 2nd time. I see lousy Wiki articles out there with no citations period, and they are not up for deletion.
Another issue, why is the Southern Cherokee Nation not allowed to have roots. They just didn't drop out of the Sky and land in Kentucky. Let me see, this tribe is not allowed to have roots from Oklahoma, Kentucky, or Georgia. They are not even allowed to have roots from the Southern Appalachians, the original Cherokee homeland. They can't even reside in the Green River wilderness Area. Oh! I know! In 1871, the 101st Airborne Div. flew from kY to the Canadian District in OK, and the Southern Cherokee parachuted into Henderson, Ky., Yelling Geronmo!!
There is clearly something clearly wrong here, when Governor Brown's Executive letter is totally discounted, and Governor Fletcher's proclamation just ignored. I was told to use secondary sources, such as the New World Encyclopedia, and I did making a connection between the Southern Cherokee in the Canadian District and the Southern Cherokee in KY. Suddenly that was not a good source either. Hmm....how neutral is that! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.154.140 (talk) 09:11, 19 January 2011 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-01-19T09:11:00.000Z","author":"76.121.154.140","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-76.121.154.140-2011-01-19T09:11:00.000Z-Deletion_Criteria","replies":["c-Markdask-2011-01-19T10:27:00.000Z-76.121.154.140-2011-01-19T09:11:00.000Z"]}}-->
76.121.154.140 is working on this article continuously, seemingly with a willingness to accommodate others' concerns regarding content. Meanwhile the three tags remain, that are in themselves affrontery. seemingly an unwillingness on others' part to acknowledge PB's good faith. Perhaps if Uyvsdi were to edit the article now it might lead to some convergence. MarkDask 14:43, 23 January 2011 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-01-23T14:43:00.000Z","author":"Markdask","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Markdask-2011-01-23T14:43:00.000Z-Discussion","replies":["c-Natty4bumpo-2011-01-23T19:07:00.000Z-Markdask-2011-01-23T14:43:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Mark"}}-->
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