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According to the caption under one of the photographs of Dworkin, "Dworkin drew inspiration for 'hard cases' from his months of angonising constapation." I went ahead and deleted the text from the picture. If someone wants to replace it with something, that would be cool, but make sure to at least check your spelling. -Banyan (talk) 22:37, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-04-30T22:37:00.000Z","author":"Banyan","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Banyan-2012-04-30T22:37:00.000Z-Vandalism","replies":[]}}-->
Current caption on his photo says he was attending the AVN Awards in Vegas. Is this really true? Seems fishy to me... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.175.106 (talk) 06:22, 4 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-04T06:22:00.000Z","author":"76.115.175.106","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-76.115.175.106-2012-05-04T06:22:00.000Z-Vandalism","replies":[]}}-->
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What is his personal life, such sponse or children? Does he have one or any? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sp0 (talk • contribs) 03:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-03-13T03:30:00.000Z","author":"Sp0","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sp0-2009-03-13T03:30:00.000Z-Personal_life,_such_as_spouse","replies":[]}}-->
Have added a note on scepticism. I think it's important to mention this because Dworkin's RAT turns on showing the sceptical claim to be a fallacious one. Hope to supplement the entry soon as there is a lot to say about it. KCL
"Dworkin argues that moral principles that people hold dear are often wrong, even to the extent that certain crimes are acceptable if your principles are skewed enough. In order to discover and apply these principles, courts interpret the legal data (legislation, cases etc) with a view to articulating an interpretation which best explains and justifies past legal practice. "
I can't see any connection whatsoever between sentences 1 & 2 and sentence 3 -- these seem like random thoughts on Dworkin tossed into one paragraph.
24.90.82.12119:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-10-03T19:21:00.000Z","author":"24.90.82.121","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-24.90.82.121-2007-10-03T19:21:00.000Z-Huh?","replies":[]}}-->
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Would someone please explain to this Habermasian lawyer exactly how Dworkin's metaphor of the Judge as Hercules bears any resemblance whatsoever to Habermas's ideal speech situation?? --Paultopia14:32, 5 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-08-05T14:32:00.000Z","author":"Paultopia","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Paultopia-2005-08-05T14:32:00.000Z-Dworkin_and_Habermas","replies":[]}}-->
Right. I've taken it out. Removed: "Dworkin's judge Hercules is not without connection to Habermas' 'ideal speech situation'." -- I don't think it's right, or at least not right enough to assert in such a vague fashion. --Paultopia20:31, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-08-11T20:31:00.000Z","author":"Paultopia","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Paultopia-2005-08-11T20:31:00.000Z-Dworkin_and_Habermas","replies":[]}}-->
Hi! 'Didn't see your question before. Both Hercules and the ideale Sprechsituation are metaphors trying to show that the right solution would be reached if a certain method could be followed with perfection. Habermas changed a bit his position on this; I'm referring to the «Kommunikationssturktur die alle systematischen Verzerrungen der Kommunikation ausschliesst und eine symmetrische Gleichverteilung von Redechancen gewährleistet» (Wahrheitstheorien, 1972). --Velho21:54, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-08-11T21:54:00.000Z","author":"Velho","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Velho-2005-08-11T21:54:00.000Z-Dworkin_and_Habermas","replies":[]}}-->
I'm not completely sure I agree with that general principle: Habermas argues that claims about normative statements are analagous to truth-claims about factual statements, but I don't think he holds that there is in fact a "right solution" in the same way that there are "right solutions" to factual assertions. (BTW: I only know Habermas in the English translations, but if you want I'll dig up a reference for this.) I also think the methods are very, very different. Habermas's "certain method" is a discourse spread out through the entire society and continuing into the future, whereas Dworkin's seems to be primarily internal reflection. Dworkin bears more resemblance to Rawls than Habermas in that sense: Habermas explicitly denies that internal reflection on what satisfies the universalization principle is appropriate, but insists that proposed norms be directly put to a public test. I know Dworkin a lot less well than I know Habermas though, so please correct me if I'm horribly wrong. --Paultopia15:42, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-08-14T15:42:00.000Z","author":"Paultopia","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Paultopia-2005-08-14T15:42:00.000Z-Dworkin_and_Habermas","replies":[]}}-->
Habermas firstly claimed that even (factual) truth would be a matter of consensus. As far as I know, he doesn't believe that anymore (see Wahrheit und Rechtfertigung/Truth and Justification, 1999), but he does maintain his consensus theory of correctness regarding normative claims. In fact, he expressly accepted much of Robert Alexy's developments of consensus theory into practical/normative matters, both ethical and legal. Anyway, what I mean is that Habermas' "ideal speech situation", Rawls' "veil of ignorance" and Dworkin's "judge Hercules" are quite similar metaphors or thought experiments created to show the possibility -- at least, the "thinkability" -- of objectively (if I may say "objectively") correct and just solutions to normative questions. And all the three of them talk about a perfect situation where those solutions would be found. I think we are just being fair to Dworkin if we include the references to Habermas and Rawls on his article. Moreover, both Habermas and Dworkin show some influence from Gadamer, which suggests that this coincidence isn't just a coincidence. As far as I see it, the difference between internal reflection and public discussion doesn't eliminate the resemblance. Velho23:49, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-08-14T23:49:00.000Z","author":"Velho","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Velho-2005-08-14T23:49:00.000Z-Dworkin_and_Habermas","replies":[]}}-->
Hmm... actually, when you put it that way, it's a lot more convincing. Making reference to both Habermas and Rawls would resolve the problem with the difference between reflection and discourse. How about "Dworkin's metaphor of judge Hercules bears some resemblance to Rawls' veil of ignorance and Habermas' ideal speech situation, in that all suggest idealized methods of arriving at more or less valid normative propositions?" (Although I think validity for Habermas is always contingent.) --Paultopia02:37, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-08-19T02:37:00.000Z","author":"Paultopia","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Paultopia-2005-08-19T02:37:00.000Z-Dworkin_and_Habermas","replies":[]}}-->
Ok! It's good for me. I'll just change "more or less" into "somehow". I suppose it's right for you. "Somehow" seems enough to care for the contingency of Habermas' validity. I'll do it now. Velho19:19, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-08-19T19:19:00.000Z","author":"Velho","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Velho-2005-08-19T19:19:00.000Z-Dworkin_and_Habermas","replies":[]}}-->
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Last change, by Simon Dodd, should be reverted. First, the example is Dworkin's example. Second, it's a hypothetical example. It doesn't mean to have any connection to any existing legal system. So, the change is absolutely pointless. Velho19:51, 22 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2005-11-22T19:51:00.000Z","author":"Velho","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Velho-2005-11-22T19:51:00.000Z-Example_of_the_sacrilegious_contract","replies":[]}}-->
I'm not enitirely sure this article has a NPOV. Several statements are a bit... opinionated. WP shouldn't have opinions IMHO, Although wether or not this applies here is beyond me. Hmm. Comments? HawkerTyphoon14:13, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-04-23T14:13:00.000Z","author":"HawkerTyphoon","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-HawkerTyphoon-2006-04-23T14:13:00.000Z-NPOV","replies":[]}}-->
I must point out that Dworkin himself would reject the idea that there is such a thing as a value-free or neutral point of view. So on one hand, you could say, yes, NPOV doesn't apply here. On the other, I don't think there is anything grossly off-kilter on the page. It goes further than a conventional encyclopedia might in describing a famous thinker, in that it presents not only Dworkin's ideas but also criticisms thereof, thus presenting a debate, and connecting the ideas more wholesomely to the ideas of others. This is what we should value Wikipedia for. More importantly perhaps, it highlights the fact that Dworkin's ideas are in some respects highly controversial, which is informative in itself.
I added the NPOV tag to draw attention to the second original paragraph under "Law as rule and principle." It is so biased that it does not even help in expounding his argument. I would fix it myself, but I am not too familiar with his views.
As a post script, of COURSE he thinks his view is the right view! If he didn't, he wouldn't hold that view!
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This is the first time I've involved myself in the Wikipedia project, so I don't know if this is the right place to post critical comments without also offering improved text, but I'll comment anyway.
The second-to-last paragraph under "The right answer thesis" seems to be lacking. The surface comparisons between Dworkin's Hercules, Rawls's original position (OP), and Habermas's ideal speech situation are right about one thing: they are "idealized methods of arriving at somehow valid normative propositions." But the article has two problems with which I take issue.
First, the original position is not to be used on the basis of the strategic justification offered in this article, such as a person who adheres to the outcome of the OP because she 'might be in the opposition at some point in the future.' Rather, the OP is used because it is the reasonable (or moral) thing to do--a commitment to justice requires it. To say that it is used for a strategic reason is misleading to the reader. (This is related to Rawls's concepts of what is required for Overlapping Consensus, but I don't have time or know-how to make my point really clear on this matter.)
I suggest that the further description of the veil of ignorance, if not the whole reference, should be deleted if it cannot be improved.
Second, the reader of this article gets the misleading impression that these thought experiments are like black boxes that "somehow" produce "valid normative propositions." "Somehow," as if the process is obscure. The Hercules model is idealized, but it is not just a groundless "leap of faith; it is what a good judge would strive to be like--a judge who follows Dworkin's procedure for finding right answers. Similarly, Rawls's OP does not just "somehow" produce "valid normative propositions." The somehow is central, and it should be elucidated in this article, if the article is going to contain this reference. The OP is only valuable if it models the moral notions that reasonable people think it should model, and if it is the agreed upon way to determine principles of political justice.
I suggest that the characterization of Hercules as a "leap of faith" should be removed or clarified.
Though I don't know enough about Dworkin and Hercules to correct these passages (and hardly know enough about Habermas's ideas to even comment), I do know enough to confidently suggest that the second-to-last paragraph of the "right answer thesis" section is off and misleading.
66.245.70.20804:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)David from Chicago[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2006-12-28T04:30:00.000Z","author":"66.245.70.208","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-66.245.70.208-2006-12-28T04:30:00.000Z-Issues_with_The_Rawls-Habermas_paragraph","replies":[]}}-->
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Dworkin obviously does not claim that there is one right answer for parcial (wh-) questions, but for yes-no questions. The issue is not on curves, but on the law of excluded middle. Velho21:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2007-03-02T21:33:00.000Z","author":"Velho","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Velho-2007-03-02T21:33:00.000Z-About_mathematics_and_the_one_right_thing","replies":[]}}-->
I've just deleted recent and some older claims the Dworkin is a Jew. Nothing shows that in the biographical sketch. In a recent interview to the New York Times, conducted and written by Adam Liptak, nothing is said about Dworkin's hypothetical Jewish origin. Liptak says only that Dworkin is "emphatically American". Velho (talk) 21:18, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the interview comes in NYU Law magazine. Sorry for that. Velho (talk) 21:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-01-31T21:18:00.000Z","author":"Velho","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Velho-2008-01-31T21:18:00.000Z-Dworkin's_ethnicity","replies":[]}}-->
I'm not sure if this website meets Wikipedia's criteria for reliable sources, but the following link has a list of Jewish philosophers, and indicates that Dworkin is Jewish: [1]24.189.139.132 (talk) 00:52, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-11-07T00:52:00.000Z","author":"24.189.139.132","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-24.189.139.132-2011-11-07T00:52:00.000Z-Dworkin's_ethnicity","replies":[]}}-->
What caught my eye was referring to Dworkin as a "Jewish-American philosopher...." As opposed to what, a Christian-American philosopher (etc.)? I mean, supposing he really was Jewish, that fact could be mentioned somewhere; but the phrase "Jewish-American philosopher" suggests to me that he explicitly brought his Judaism to bear in his philosophizing, which so far as I can tell he did not. I am not confident enough in my impression actually to make an editorial change, but I would at least like to open the discussion with an eye to possible future edit. Jmarks13 (talk) 18:41, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-10-09T18:41:00.000Z","author":"Jmarks13","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Jmarks13-2016-10-09T18:41:00.000Z-Dworkin's_ethnicity","replies":[]}}-->
What does it mean in the first sentence where it says that he IS Jeremy Bentham and Frank Sommer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.17.188.59 (talk) 09:10, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-07-04T09:10:00.000Z","author":"71.17.188.59","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-71.17.188.59-2010-07-04T09:10:00.000Z-Confused","replies":["c-24.222.2.222-2014-05-14T14:09:00.000Z-71.17.188.59-2010-07-04T09:10:00.000Z"]}}-->
New York University established a special professorial position, named in honor of Frank Sommer. The person who held that position would be given the professional title "Frank Sommer Professor of Law". Ronald Dworkin occupied that position.24.222.2.222 (talk) 14:09, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2014-05-14T14:09:00.000Z","author":"24.222.2.222","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-24.222.2.222-2014-05-14T14:09:00.000Z-71.17.188.59-2010-07-04T09:10:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->
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Was Dworkin born in Rhode Island or in Massachusetts?
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A blogpost by Michael Pakaluk points out that there are conflicting sources. NNDB, The Guardian, The Washington Post, The Encyclopedia Britannica, and others say that he was born in Worcester, Mass. The New York Times, The Telegraph, NYU, and others that he was born in Providence, R.I. Can anyone clear this up? Opalescent Parrot (talk) 05:16, 1 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-04-01T05:16:00.000Z","author":"Opalescent Parrot","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Opalescent_Parrot-2013-04-01T05:16:00.000Z-Was_Dworkin_born_in_Rhode_Island_or_in_Massachusetts?","replies":[]}}-->
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101-ша окрема бригада територіальної оборони Нарукавний знак бригадиЗасновано вересня 2018 (5 років)Країна УкраїнаНалежність Сили територіальної оборониВид Сухопутні військаРоль моторизована піхотаЧисельність більше 4500 осібБазування Закарпатська область 101...
Misterbianco Entidad subnacional MisterbiancoLocalización de Misterbianco en Italia Coordenadas 37°31′06″N 15°00′25″E / 37.518333333333, 15.006944444444Capital MisterbiancoIdioma oficial ItalianoEntidad Comuna de Italia • País Italia • Región Sicilia • Provincia CataniaDirigentes • Alcalde Ninnella CARUSOFracciones Belsito, Lineri, Montepalma, Piano Tavola, Poggio Lupo, Serra SuperioreMunicipios limítrofes Camporotondo Etneo, Ca...
IDN MediaJenisSwastaIndustriMediaDidirikan8 Juni 2014; 9 tahun lalu (2014-06-08)PendiriWinston Utomo (CEO), William Utomo (COO)KantorpusatMenara Global Lantai 16, Jalan Jenderal Gatot Subroto Kav. 27, Kuningan Timur, Setiabudi, Jakarta Selatan 12950, Jakarta, IndonesiaWilayah operasiIndonesiaSitus webwww.idn.media IDN Media adalah sebuah perusahaan platform media untuk milenial dan generasi Z di Indonesia. Perusahaan ini didirikan pada 8 Juni 2014 di Surabaya, Jawa Timur, dan berpusat di...
Beaurains-lès-Noyon Entidad subnacional Beaurains-lès-NoyonLocalización de Beaurains-lès-Noyon en Francia Coordenadas 49°36′39″N 2°58′22″E / 49.610833333333, 2.9727777777778Entidad Comuna de Francia • País Francia • Región Picardía • Departamento Oise • Distrito distrito de Compiègne • Cantón cantón de Noyon • Mancomunidad Communauté de communes du Pays NoyonnaisAlcalde Daniel Hardier(2008 - 2014)Superficie &...
село Красне Країна Україна Область Одеська область Район Подільський район Громада Долинська сільська громада Код КАТОТТГ UA51120050050069047 Облікова картка Красне (Подільський район) Основні дані Засноване 1898 (125 років) Населення 97 Площа 0,28 км² Густота населенн�...
Brazilian football club Football clubTupãFull nameTupã Futebol ClubeNickname(s)Tricolor da Alta PaulistaMajestadeFounded8 February 1936; 87 years ago (1936-02-08)GroundEstádio Alonso Carvalho BragaCapacity5,515LeagueCampeonato Paulista Segunda Divisão2020Paulista Segunda Divisão, 20th of 35WebsiteClub website Home colours Away colours Tupã Futebol Clube, or simply Tupã, is a Brazilian football team based in Tupã, São Paulo. Founded in 1936, it plays in Campeonato Pa...
«Mal de altura» redirige aquí. Para el libro con este título, véase Mal de altura (libro). «Soroche» redirige aquí. Para el cerro con este título, véase Cerro Soroche. Mal de montaña o mal de altura Un cartel puesto por la Armada de India en la región de Ladakh, en el que se indica que la persona se encuentra a 5360 m.s.n.m junto a indicaciones en caso de sufrir mal de montaña.Especialidad medicina de emergenciaSíntomas Dolor de cabeza, Vómito, Oídos tapados Fatiga, Insom...
Irish novelist and runner (born 1964) This biography of a living person needs additional citations for verification. Please help by adding reliable sources. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libelous.Find sources: Michael Collins Irish author – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR (December 2014) (Learn how a...
Посольство України в Литві Країна УкраїнаПосол Бешта Петро ПетровичВідкрите 1993Адреса Литва, м.Вільнюс, вул. Театро,4 54°40′53″ пн. ш. 25°16′25″ сх. д. / 54.68138888891666483° пн. ш. 25.27361111113889081° сх. д. / 54.68138888891666483; 25.27361111113889081Координати: 54°40′53″ п�...
This biography of a living person needs additional citations for verification. Please help by adding reliable sources. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libelous.Find sources: Nicky Little – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR (June 2016) (Learn how and when to remove this template message) Rugby playerNicky Litt...
FlooxerType of siteStreaming mediaAvailable inSpanishOwnerAtresmediaURLatresplayer.com/flooxerCommercialYesRegistrationNoneLaunchedNovember 17, 2015; 8 years ago (2015-11-17) Flooxer is a Spanish brand of original audiovisual streaming content which belongs to Atresmedia.[1][2] Initially its own platform, after the launch of streaming service Atresplayer by Atresmedia, the brand and content from Flooxer were integrated into the new platform.[3] I...
15th episode of the 16th season of The Simpsons Future-DramaThe Simpsons episodeEpisode no.Season 16Episode 15Directed byMike B. AndersonWritten byMatt SelmanProduction codeGABF12Original air dateApril 17, 2005 (2005-04-17)Guest appearances John DiMaggio as Bender Amy Poehler as Jenda Marcia Wallace as Edna Krabappel Episode featuresCouch gagSeveral toy-like forms of transportation come into the living room, only to change Transformers-like into the family.CommentaryAl Jea...
هذه المقالة يتيمة إذ تصل إليها مقالات أخرى قليلة جدًا. فضلًا، ساعد بإضافة وصلة إليها في مقالات متعلقة بها. (مارس 2021) متنزه سيدار بوينت الحكومي البلد الولايات المتحدة الموقع نيويورك أقرب مدينة قرية كلايتون إحداثيات 44°12′29″N 76°12′00″W / 44.208°N 76.2°W / 44.208; -76.2 ...
Spiritual guru His HolinessJayapataka SwamiAcāryapādaJayapataka SvāmīTitleTridandi SwamiPersonalBornGordon John Erdman II (1949-04-09) April 9, 1949 (age 74)Milwaukee, Wisconsin, U.S.ReligionHinduismSchoolVaiṣṇavavādaLineageBrahma-Madhva-Gauḍīya SampradāyaSectGauḍīya VaiṣṇavavādaMonastic nameJaya-patākā SvāmīPhilosophyAchintya Bheda AbhedaReligious careerTeacherA. C. Bhaktivedānta SwāmīPredecessorA. C. Bhaktivedānta SwāmīInitiationGauḍīya Vaiṣṇa...
Samoan AustraliansTagata Sāmoa i Ausetalia (Samoan)Total population98,029 (2021)Regions with significant populationsSydney, Brisbane, MelbourneLanguagesAustralian English, SamoanReligionChristianity, Polytheism, IrreligionRelated ethnic groupsOther Polynesians Samoan Australians refers to Australian citizens or residents who are of ethnic Samoan descent or people born in Samoa but grew up in Australia. However, there are many New Zealand-born Samoans living in Australia, known as Samoan...
This article is part of a series about Clint Eastwood Early life Personal life Political life 2012 RNC appearance Filmography Discography Bibliography Awards and honors Malpaso Productions Man with No Name Harry Callahan Go ahead, make my day vte Clint Eastwood has had numerous casual and serious relationships of varying length and intensity over his life, many of which overlapped. He has eight known children by six women,[1] only half of whom were contemporaneously acknowledged. East...
Эта статья написана в рекламном стиле. Это не соответствует правилам Википедии. Вы можете помочь проекту, исправив текст согласно стилистическим рекомендациям Википедии.BRP Can-Am Spyder Roadster Общая информация Производитель BRP (Bombardier Recreational Products, Inc.) Годы выпуска 2007 - н. в. Тип Тра...
Nicolás Burdisso Burdisso nel 2011 Nazionalità Argentina Altezza 182 cm Peso 81 kg Calcio Ruolo Allenatore (ex difensore) Squadra Fiorentina (direttore tecnico) Termine carriera 11 ottobre 2018 - giocatore Carriera Giovanili 1997-1999 Boca Juniors Squadre di club1 1999-2004 Boca Juniors110 (4)2004-2009 Inter93 (4)2009-2014 Roma101 (6)2014-2017 Genoa108 (1)2017-2018 Torino24 (0) Nazionale 2001 Argentina U-2013 (1)2004 Argentina olimpica3 (0)2003-...