Bharatiya29 Your recent edit shows you are simple violating WP:NPOV. This and this one, both shows your are using and adding your own opinion and version here. His father clearly said, "We did not join the AAP. Till 2012, I was in the BSP (Bahujan Samaj Party), after that my health deteriorated and I left politics. When Lok sabha election was about to take place, these people (AAP) came and we did it (wore the cap) for fun. This time, I even garlanded the BJP candidate. I’m not connected to politics".The Hindu Original video of his father and brother.The Quint His brother clearly said, they wear it because the is an act of respect to them by the party not any membership. There is no membership given. Now tell me in your reply through edit summary, you pointed this "I avoided it for being WP:UNDUE because then mentioning his father's association with the BSP" which is his past association but fail to mention the present association "This time, I even garlanded the BJP candidate.". This allegations are baseless and need not to be mentioned as the subject matter is about violence and there is no evidence if AAP or BJP is behind this. Dey subrata (talk) 22:55, 6 February 2020 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2020-02-06T22:55:00.000Z","author":"Dey subrata","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Dey_subrata-2020-02-06T22:55:00.000Z-Delhi_Police_allegations","replies":[]}}-->
I would like to bring Kautilya3, El C, MarnetteD, Staszek Lem, Vanamonde93 to this matter, what do you people think of it. Dey subrata (talk) 22:58, 6 February 2020 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2020-02-06T22:58:00.000Z","author":"Dey subrata","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Dey_subrata-2020-02-06T22:58:00.000Z-Delhi_Police_allegations","replies":["c-Kautilya3-2020-02-06T23:07:00.000Z-Dey_subrata-2020-02-06T22:58:00.000Z","c-Bharatiya29-2020-02-07T12:19:00.000Z-Dey_subrata-2020-02-06T22:58:00.000Z","c-Pectore-2020-03-07T22:12:00.000Z-Dey_subrata-2020-02-06T22:58:00.000Z"]}}-->
Should we change the name of this page as "Hindutva terror" as it is more widely accepted term and fits more instead of saffron.
The hindutva terrorism is more widely accepted and incidents are reported in these terms only. It will be good if we change it. Edward Zigma (talk) 07:14, 10 February 2020 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2020-02-10T07:14:00.000Z","author":"Edward Zigma","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Edward_Zigma-2020-02-10T07:14:00.000Z-Hindutva_terror","replies":["c-Crawford88-2020-02-11T05:27:00.000Z-Edward_Zigma-2020-02-10T07:14:00.000Z","c-Bharatiya29-2020-02-11T06:51:00.000Z-Edward_Zigma-2020-02-10T07:14:00.000Z"]}}-->
Yes its not saffron terror its only hindutva radical terror who thinks that Islam should nt be in India. Akshat1233 (talk) 07:03, 7 June 2020 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2020-06-07T07:03:00.000Z","author":"Akshat1233","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Akshat1233-2020-06-07T07:03:00.000Z-Hindutva_terror","replies":[]}}-->
plz rectify .. there no saffron terror.. it's a political conspiration Dr krishna1 (talk) 21:52, 6 September 2020 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2020-09-06T21:52:00.000Z","author":"Dr krishna1","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Dr_krishna1-2020-09-06T21:52:00.000Z-Hindutva_terror","replies":[]}}-->
The recently concluded move request has made it clear that the general consensus is to keep the scope of this article limited to the neologism "Saffron Terror", and not the propaganda/concept/phenomenon (or whatever one may call it) of Hindu/Hinduism/Hindutva terrorism. In light of this, an effort needs to be made to include only those events in the "Incidents" section which have been clearly termed as "Saffron terror" by a significant section of neutral reliable sources. This will obviously result in the removal of a major chunk of this troublesome section. As of now, only the first section, i.e. "1999 killing of Graham Staines" has an explicit reference to a source linking it to the term, meaning that the other sections need to be removed if a similar source is not provided for them. Even then, the question of whether a single source is significant enough to warrant a section here crops up. However, that is a different debate for the future. Bharatiya29 20:30, 29 February 2020 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2020-02-29T20:30:00.000Z","author":"Bharatiya29","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Bharatiya29-2020-02-29T20:30:00.000Z-Scope_of_the_article","replies":["c-Vanamonde93-2020-03-01T01:40:00.000Z-Bharatiya29-2020-02-29T20:30:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Bharatiya"}}-->
Furthermore, the problem with the term "Saffron terror" was not that it was controversial, it's that it is something of a neologism.
People says about saffron terror but they dont know How islam Has destroyed akhand bharat and made it pakistan ,bangladesh and occupy half kashmir ,kashmiri pandits , that's why some Hindus have gone radical that Muslims shouldn't be in Bharat.thats how it all started. Akshat1233 (talk) 07:02, 7 June 2020 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2020-06-07T07:02:00.000Z","author":"Akshat1233","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Akshat1233-2020-06-07T07:02:00.000Z-There's_nothing_called_saffron_terror","replies":["c-Kashmiri-2020-06-07T14:10:00.000Z-Akshat1233-2020-06-07T07:02:00.000Z"]}}-->
Saffron terror is a term used by the center left political parties to garner votes from non-hindu communities Writewing09 (talk) 16:23, 11 August 2020 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2020-08-11T16:23:00.000Z","author":"Writewing09","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Writewing09-2020-08-11T16:23:00.000Z-There's_nothing_called_saffron_terror","replies":[]}}-->
Yes this is right
Shamit2005 (talk) 18:13, 28 November 2020 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2020-11-28T18:13:00.000Z","author":"Shamit2005","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Shamit2005-2020-11-28T18:13:00.000Z-There's_nothing_called_saffron_terror","replies":[]}}-->
This is a term coined by the Congress party Minister P Chidambaram and Digvijay Singh to defame Hindus in their own country, for political reasons and for garnering the votes of Muslims and Christians. It is suggested to Wikipedia to please remove this topic from the main Wikipedia page, since such a thing never existed nor is present now. Rharipanth (talk) 10:25, 13 September 2020 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2020-09-13T10:25:00.000Z","author":"Rharipanth","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Rharipanth-2020-09-13T10:25:00.000Z-So_called_saffron_terror","replies":["c-Kashmiri-2020-11-28T08:10:00.000Z-Rharipanth-2020-09-13T10:25:00.000Z"]}}-->
sources for the blue padlock? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.42.32.236 (talk) 05:39, 18 March 2021 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-03-18T05:39:00.000Z","author":"67.42.32.236","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-67.42.32.236-2021-03-18T05:39:00.000Z-sources","replies":[]}}-->
Hindutva fundamentalists were also involved in the 2020 Delhi riots. Please mention it. Tamjeed Ahmed (talk) 10:42, 11 June 2021 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-06-11T10:42:00.000Z","author":"Tamjeed Ahmed","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tamjeed_Ahmed-2021-06-11T10:42:00.000Z-2020_Delhi_Riots","replies":[]}}-->
Yeah Tahir Hussain was a Hindu right Vishnu Sooraj (talk) 11:31, 27 June 2021 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-06-27T11:31:00.000Z","author":"Vishnu Sooraj","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Vishnu_Sooraj-2021-06-27T11:31:00.000Z-2020_Delhi_Riots","replies":[]}}-->
It is basically a conspiracy theory against the hindus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.191.53.10 (talk) 15:39, 3 July 2021 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-07-03T15:39:00.000Z","author":"223.191.53.10","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-223.191.53.10-2021-07-03T15:39:00.000Z-Extended-confirmed-protected_edit_request_on_3_July_2021","replies":[]}}-->
This article should be called Hindu Terrorism, not "Saffron terror". There are articles on Christian Terrorism and Islamic Terrorism.
the samjhauta express bombings the masjid bomb blasts are mere accusations it doesnt even have good sources atleast confirm those edits the riots was started by muslims in godhra burning httpo://www.dw.de/modis-clearance-in-the-gujarat-riots-case-angers-indian-muslims/a-15874606
the Anti Terrorist Squad has prima facie ruled out the involvement of Hindu Nationalist groups like the Bajrang Dal in the Malegaon blasts citing two reasons:
RDX is only available to Islamist outfits. Bajrang Dal activists so far have only used crude bombs, nothing as sophisticated as the ones in Malegaon
https://web.archive.org/web/20121105055424/http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2006-09-12/india/27800611_1_malegaon-blasts-p-k-jain-maharashtra-town https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/police-crack-malegaon-serial-blasts-case-spot-simi-hand/articleshow/610189.cms
then about samjhauta express it is alleged that it was done by lashkar-e-tayiba https://indianexpress.com/news/curious-case-of-qasmani-who-us-un-named-in-bombing/735185/0 https://web.archive.org/web/20110811144133/http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-05-11/india/29531592_1_qaida-al-qaida-arif-qasmani https://www.npr.org/2011/05/12/136234805/foreign-policy-next-lets-get-bin-ladens-financiers
mecca masjid bombing
The South Asia Terrorism Portal,[1] the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses,[2] the National Counter Terrorism Centre[78] the United States,[3] and the United Nations[4] reported that Harkat-ul-Jihad al-Islami was actually behind the attacks while excluding involvement by any Hindu group. Noting this, security analyst Bahukutumbi Raman has questioned "the two different versions that have emerged from Indian and American investigators."[81] The South Asia Terrorism Portal cited Vikar Ahmed as a main suspect in the blast.[5][6] Mohammed Abdul Shahid Bilal, former chief of HuJI's Indian operations, is also regarded as a key suspect in the Mecca Masjid bombing. Later he was shot by unknown gunmen in Karachi on 30 August 2007
ajmer dargah attacks were mere accusations https://web.archive.org/web/20130927121847/http://ibnlive.in.com/news/ajmer-blast-accused-claims-shinde-forced-him-to-name-rss-chief-bhagwat/424426-3-239.html
If the attacks and other incidents are supposed to stay in the article, the text must about how the term was used in relation to, or how it's use emerged from, these events. Not about the events as such. If this is not done after a while, any such event content can be removed, because the article is not a list of events but deals with a term, the historical context of it's usage, it's emergence, reactions thereof etc (see WP:WORDISSUBJECT). Unqualifiedly calling something an instance of Saffron terror "retroactively" when the term hadn't been popularized yet (which apparently happened in 2010 -- subsequent to the events), and when these events weren't being called that (or maybe they were but this article fails to establish it) is WP:SYNTH. Possible inclusion could be as historical context, but each event would have to be given due weight, and a source would have to be provided for each of these events being causally linked to the term's later spread in some way. — Alalch Emis (talk) 12:11, 20 November 2021 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-11-20T12:11:00.000Z","author":"Alalch Emis","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Alalch_Emis-2021-11-20T12:11:00.000Z-Content_relating_to_specific_events_must_be_about_instances_of_the_term's_usage,","replies":["c-Cipher21-2021-11-20T15:24:00.000Z-Alalch_Emis-2021-11-20T12:11:00.000Z","c-Hemanthah-2021-11-20T17:51:00.000Z-Alalch_Emis-2021-11-20T12:11:00.000Z"],"displayName":"\u2014 Alalch Emis"}}-->
Saffron terror is a neologism used to describe acts of violence motivated by Hindutva. Hindu extremism is usually perpetrated by members, or alleged members, of Hindu nationalist organisations like Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) or Abhinav Bharat.[1][2][3] The term comes from the symbolic use of the saffron colour by many H/indu nationalist organisations.[4][5][6][7]
Kashmiri: Your change (diff) to the first sentence would make for a fine first sentence, but I wonder if it's a valid summary of the lead per MOS:LEAD. If the body is currently about a term according to the WP:WORDISSUBJECT formulation of the scope of the article (sections are 'Historical context and origins [of the term]' and 'Usage [of the term]'), the first sentence should need to be about the term. If we want a first sentence that is about the phenomenon we need to write a "ground-truth" sourced section about the phenomenon that isn't a mere list of events whereby the reader is lead to an implicit synthesis ("You see, this is saffron terror"). Regards — Alalch Emis (talk) 17:29, 23 November 2021 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-11-23T17:29:00.000Z","author":"Alalch Emis","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Alalch_Emis-2021-11-23T17:29:00.000Z-Content_relating_to_specific_events_must_be_about_instances_of_the_term's_usage,","replies":["c-Kashmiri-2021-11-23T18:08:00.000Z-Alalch_Emis-2021-11-23T17:29:00.000Z"],"displayName":"\u2014 Alalch Emis"}}-->
References
User:Wikibhai110 added ClueBot to archive this page, even though MiszaBot(later Lowercase Sigma) was already doing it. This has resulted in a split - a set of numbered archives till Feb 2020 and a set of monthly named archives since then.
I've created a new Archive 5 and copied all content from ClueBot's monthly archives to it. The archive search at the top is now comprehensive. Here's a set of diffs to verify content sameness.
As you can see from Archive 5 history, there are only 5 edits adding content and all the 5 diffs above show empty left sides, meaning I've added no new content. The sizes match ClueBot's archival edits (once same month edits are added together).
If there's anything I missed, let me know. I'll remove ClueBot in a while after those interested have had time to verify my changes (unless objections). I have done no change apart from adding that 5th archive page. --Hemanthah (talk) 08:03, 22 November 2021 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-11-22T08:03:00.000Z","author":"Hemanthah","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Hemanthah-2021-11-22T08:03:00.000Z-Bot_conflict_from_having_both_ClueBot_and_Lowercase_Sigma","replies":["c-Hemanthah-2021-11-22T08:03:00.000Z-Hemanthah-2021-11-22T08:03:00.000Z","c-Hemanthah-2021-11-30T04:43:00.000Z-Hemanthah-2021-11-22T08:03:00.000Z","c-Kashmiri-2021-11-22T22:21:00.000Z-Hemanthah-2021-11-22T08:03:00.000Z"]}}-->
Just dropping it here: https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/india/haridwar-hate-speech-yati-narsinghanand-b1981970.html — kashmīrī TALK 23:39, 24 December 2021 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-12-24T23:39:00.000Z","author":"Kashmiri","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kashmiri-2021-12-24T23:39:00.000Z-\"Shock_after_leaders_of_several_far-right_Hindu_groups_allegedly_call_for_genoci","replies":["c-Kautilya3-2021-12-24T23:58:00.000Z-Kashmiri-2021-12-24T23:39:00.000Z"],"displayName":"kashm\u012br\u012b"}}-->
Does does communal conflict are terrorist activities??? Het666 (talk) 15:54, 1 May 2022 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2022-05-01T15:54:00.000Z","author":"Het666","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Het666-2022-05-01T15:54:00.000Z-Reality","replies":["c-PulauKakatua19-2022-06-14T23:25:00.000Z-Het666-2022-05-01T15:54:00.000Z"]}}-->
This article has been tagged with an NPOV dispute tag since 2014. Isn't it time to remove it? Cipher21 (talk) 16:20, 22 November 2021 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-11-22T16:20:00.000Z","author":"Cipher21","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Cipher21-2021-11-22T16:20:00.000Z-NPOV_tag","replies":["c-Venkat_TL-2021-11-26T16:23:00.000Z-Cipher21-2021-11-22T16:20:00.000Z","c-Alalch_Emis-2021-11-26T16:34:00.000Z-Cipher21-2021-11-22T16:20:00.000Z","c-Devesh.bhatta-2021-12-17T03:24:00.000Z-Cipher21-2021-11-22T16:20:00.000Z","c-CapnJackSp-2022-01-31T17:21:00.000Z-Cipher21-2021-11-22T16:20:00.000Z","c-Dankster-20220916173900-Cipher21-2021-11-22T16:20:00.000Z"]}}-->
The National Investigation Agency,[1] Central Bureau of Investigation[2] and Anti Terrorist Squad (India)[3] questioned former members of the RSS[4][5] On 19 November 2010, the Central Bureau of Investigation produced Swami Aseemanand before the court in connection with the Blast. But later he has retracted the confession citing the mental and physical pressure to provide that confession.[6] 27.7.113.149 (talk) 06:24, 31 March 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230331062400","author":"27.7.113.149","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-27.7.113.149-20230331062400-2007_Mecca_Masjid_bombing","replies":[]}}-->
{{cite web}}
The result of the move request was: rough consensus to move. This was a lengthy discussion in which many arguments were raised, so I aim here to summarize the leading strands of the discussion rather than to provide a comprehensive list of claims made. There were two primary arguments that provided convincing support to the proposal:
The two lines of argument discussed above established that the "Hindu terrorism" title was preferable to "Saffron terror" along two of the titling criteria. The discussion also included several popular lines of argument that ultimately proved to support neither title:
Opponents of the move largely sought to criticize the proposed title, "Hindu terrorism", rather than to give affirmative cases for retaining "Saffron terror". The main argument that was explicitly pro-"Saffron terror" was based on WP:COMMONNAME, a topic which I discuss earlier in this closing statement. Other arguments in opposition to "Hindu terrorism" included the following:
In summation, the opponents of the move ultimately did not present arguments of comparable strength to the WP:CRITERIA-related arguments leveled in support of the proposal. Thus, while the supporters and opponents for this RM were roughly equal in number, the weight of arguments leads me to find a rough consensus to move the article as proposed. (non-admin closure) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:26, 30 March 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230330172600","author":"ModernDayTrilobite","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-ModernDayTrilobite-20230330172600-Requested_move_25_February_2023","replies":[]}}-->
Saffron terror → Hindu terrorism – The current page title fails at the basics of naturalness and recognizability. While since the late 1990s, "Saffron terror" has been a common phrase in South Asia for terror committed by Hindu extremist groups, for the global English-speaking audience that this encyclopedia addresses a straightforward descriptive title makes sense, per WP:NDESC, consistent with Islamic terrorism, Christian terrorism and Jewish terrorism. Literature-wise, as Ngrams makes plain, taking the full breadth of the literature, "Saffron terror" commands but a fraction of the mentions of the broader mentions of "Hindu terror" or "Hindu terrorism" - the latter being a term for which this page is already the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, meaning this page is already the only page on Wikipedia about Hindu terrorism, and not simple a page about the neologism that is "Saffron terror". Google Scholar also produces 182 results for "Hindu terrorism" to 147 hits for "Saffron terror", without even getting into the various other iterations, such as "Hindu terror" 99 hits, "Hindutva terror" 92 results, etc. that make plain that there is no clear WP:COMMONNAME. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:34, 25 February 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 19:41, 5 March 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 16:53, 19 March 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230225123400","author":"Iskandar323","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Iskandar323-20230225123400-Requested_move_25_February_2023","replies":["c-Iskandar323-20230227064700-Iskandar323-20230225123400","c-Capitals00-20230225133500-Iskandar323-20230225123400"]}}-->
"Hindu terrorism, also called saffron terror, thrives on the notion of Hindutva."
"The BJP and its parent organisation, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, have long held that there is no such thing as Hindu terrorism—the term gained traction against the backdrop of investigations into the Samjhauta Express blast of 2007 and the Malegaon blasts of 2008, among others."
"Despite many cases of Hindu terrorism in India, the figure of the Muslim as a terrorist in Indian society lurks in no small part due to post 9/11 Western discourse of the “War on Terror.” That the Malegaon bombasts, Ajmer Dargah attack, and Mecca Masjid blast were carried out by Hindu terrorists is somehow comfortably forgotten in mainstream narratives."
"Yet any reference to the term “saffron terror” to indicate growing Hindu terrorism in India can be used a disciplinary ground by the Election Commission of India for allegedly endorsing a “political conspiracy.”"
The term "Hindu terror" is at best creation of BJP to misrepresent its major opponent Congress.
"Heaven forbid that we should let Hindu terrorism warp our judgment when and if we must adjudicate again on communal rivalries."
"The Mussalmans have been oppressed and persecuted by the excesses of the Hindu majority in the last ten years but Mr Gandhi never tried to improve matters or condemn Hindu terrorism against the Muslims"
"The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize."
"For the purposes of this article the terms religious fundamentalism, religious nationalism, and religious extremism are interchangeably defined ..."
Move review started here: Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2023_April. Capitals00 (talk) 18:35, 2 April 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230402183500","author":"Capitals00","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Capitals00-20230402183500-Move_review","replies":[]}}-->
@Capitals00: Maybe you missed the memo on your talk page, but I'm still awaiting the explanation of this wholesale revert, and this repeat revert, of the same diverse range of edits under two entirely lacking edit summaries. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:15, 31 March 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230331111500","author":"Iskandar323","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Iskandar323-20230331111500-Reversion_of_sourced_content","replies":["c-Capitals00-20230331115900-Iskandar323-20230331111500"]}}-->
The BJP and the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh have long maintained that "Hindu terrorism" does not exist, and maintained a stated position that rejects "any link between religion and acts of terror", despite the term gaining traction in the wake of the Samjhauta Express and Malegaon bombings.
"You are blaming..."
I checked the sources mentioned in the beginning.
1-Saffron Terror: Splinter or Symptom? JULI GITTINGER
2-Pawns In, Patrons Still Out: Understanding the Phenomenon of Hindutva Terror SUBHASH GATADE
3-Confronting the Reality of Hindutva Terrorism Praful Bidwai
4- Google book mentions Hindu terrorism
5- Hindutva terror cases: NIA on the backfoot as apex court questions complicity charges
If you people are naming the artile as Hindu terror then use sources which is named as Hindu terror in the title.
The support votes for move shows that Timothy Dalton can be moved to James Bond? Or Shah Rukh Khan be moved to Baadshah of Bollywood? Venus 4321 (talk) 06:00, 8 April 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230408060000","author":"Venus 4321","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Venus_4321-20230408060000-Sources_2","replies":[]}}-->
I took ou th note with the quote from S. Radhakrishnan because his comments were not in the context of terrorism. Not sure why the edit summary didn't survive but figured I'd better explain the removal somewhere! RegentsPark (comment) 21:40, 24 April 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230424214000","author":"RegentsPark","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-RegentsPark-20230424214000-Radhakrishan_quote","replies":[]}}-->
@Kautilya3: Come on then. Let's hear your explanation as to why you are removing reliable sources, including two peer-reviewed sources, from the article. You don't really need consensus to add factual, reliably sourced information to this encyclopedia, especially when the addition is so stragihtforward, so I assume you have a very good reason indeed for reverting here. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:28, 2 March 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230302152800","author":"Iskandar323","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Iskandar323-20230302152800-Counterfactual_revert","replies":["c-Kautilya3-20230302173800-Iskandar323-20230302152800","c-Kautilya3-20230302174200-Iskandar323-20230302152800","c-REDISCOVERBHARAT-20230303064200-Iskandar323-20230302152800","c-Vanamonde93-20230303165400-Iskandar323-20230302152800","c-Iskandar323-20230401142500-Iskandar323-20230302152800","c-Vanamonde93-20230401154800-Iskandar323-20230302152800"]}}-->
It could be argued that Hindu terrorism is not religious violence, but political (another reason I am partial to the non-religious label of saffron).
The term comes from the association of the color saffron with Hindu nationalism.[1]
Christian terrorism consists of terrorist attacks committed by groups or individuals who appeal to Christian motives or goals for their actions.
"Using adversarial threat analysis framework, the paper first establishes Hindutva terror as a potent threat..."
Hindutva terror is equivalent to Saffron terror
entire premise is based on WP:NDESC
The phenomenon of Hinduism-motivated terrorism is well documented and this article needs to allow adding such content – Hindu terrorist acts not strictly linked with Hindutva ideology. Of all the proposed titles, only Hindu terrorism captures it well
few paragraphs
I went through this ref. [1] The source does not contain any reference to Hindu Terror, and the only mention of Saffron Terror is the title. The body is about the 2002 riots, and the only reference to terror in the article does not mention Hinduism, Hindutva or Saffron. It seems like WP:OR to extrapolate any reference from the source when the article is not about the topic at hand. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 07:14, 25 April 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230425071400","author":"CapnJackSp","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-CapnJackSp-20230425071400-Ref","replies":["c-Iskandar323-20230425084000-CapnJackSp-20230425071400"],"displayName":"Captain Jack Sparrow"}}-->
:"Praveen Swami, an Indian journalist, coined the term "Saffron terror" for the first time in 2002."
{{cite news}}
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The result of the move request was: no consensus. There is no consensus to remain at the current title, nor to switch to a different title. It would appear that the options with any significant support are options 2 and 3, with only minor amounts of support for option 1. (non-admin closure) EggRoll97 (talk) 20:08, 9 May 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230509200800","author":"EggRoll97","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-EggRoll97-20230509200800-Requested_move_30_April_2023","replies":[]}}-->
Hindu terrorism → ? – What should the title of this page be? Four distinct alternatives have been presented thus far, but none have consensus. Given the copious discussion here, I don't see how further workshopping will be helpful. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:16, 30 April 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230430191600","author":"Vanamonde93","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Vanamonde93-20230430191600-Requested_move_30_April_2023","replies":[],"displayName":"Vanamonde"}}-->
Options:
(1) "Hindu terrorism" encompasses much more than acts of terror resulting from Hindutva ideology, even if currently somewhat underserved by the current version of the article, (2) "Hindutva terrorism" fails WP:COMMONNAME, and (3) Hindutva is a technical term that's not understandable outside of the group of Indian experts and Hindi speakers.
When there is no single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used for the topic by these sources, editors should reach a consensus as to which title is best by considering these criteria directly.
Hindu terrorism
Hindutva and Hinduism are distinct. Hindutva is a narrow political ideology whereas Hinduism is a broad-based religious tradition. Many Hindus oppose Hindutva ideology, both in India and in the US-based diaspora, and it is offensive to conflate the two.
War Wounded (talk) 09:21, 7 May 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230507092100","author":"War Wounded","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-War_Wounded-20230507092100-Survey","replies":["c-ArvindPalaskar-20230507131000-War_Wounded-20230507092100","c-Capitals00-20230508023100-War_Wounded-20230507092100","c-Desmay-20230509025100-War_Wounded-20230507092100"]}}-->
Please do not use RfC for move discussions. {{subst:requested move}} is perfectly capable of handling open-ended names and multiple options. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:57, 30 April 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230430205700","author":"Redrose64","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Redrose64-20230430205700-Discussion","replies":[]}}-->
{{subst:requested move}}
I've started an AfD.—Alalch E. 02:13, 1 May 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230501021300","author":"Alalch E.","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Alalch_E.-20230501021300-Discussion","replies":[]}}-->
Terror vs. Terrorism
While it may seem to some that there is confusion between the terms "Terror" and "Terrorism", I don't think that's the case. When ngrams are studied, the term "Terror" is often much more prominent than "Terrorism". In fact if "Terror" is changed to "Terrorism", the name often falls off the ngrams graph completely. I found that happens when "Saffron Terror" is changed to "Saffron terrorism", and when "Hindutva Terror" is changed to "Hindutva terrorism". So possible confusion aside, an ngrams analysis often prefers "______ Terror" (or "______ terror") over "______ terrorism". To me, that pretty much throws COMMONNAME out the window as a supporting policy for any potential title of this article. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 12:00, 1 May 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230501120000","author":"Paine Ellsworth","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Paine_Ellsworth-20230501120000-Discussion","replies":["c-Alalch_E.-20230501210800-Paine_Ellsworth-20230501120000"],"displayName":"P.I.\u00a0Ellsworth"}}-->
"Domestic terrorism: Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups to further ideological goals..."
Several supporters of "Hindu terrorism" argued that it would be WP:CONSISTENT with other article titles on religious terrorism. However, later in the discussion it was demonstrated that such articles are not actually consistently titled, and that some of the pro-CONSISTENT evidence in fact referred to redirects. Thus, WP:CONSISTENT does not ultimately support either title.
Today, Hindutva ... is a dominant form of Hindu nationalist politics in India
.
I will quote it here:
In this move review, the community considers whether ModernDayTrilobite's very articulate and well-explained close really reflects what the community said. Arguably it doesn't, and many editors -- too many good faith editors to disregard -- feel that this close reduces to MDT's opinion in a hat box. I have to say that the close can't stand as written. I think that's a pity, because it is a very clear close that comes with a commendably detailed explanation of its basis in policy. It was a non-admin close, and yet I wish that more admin closes looked like that.The article we're considering was previously called "Saffron terror", which is a problematic title for several reasons that are well-explained in the move discussion that MDT closed. It has been moved to "Hindu terror", which is also problematic for other reasons that are also well-explained.The community hasn't coalesced around one of the options here, and I think that's because none of the choices is really satisfactory. The actual subject of the article is terrorism committed by Hindu nationalist groups in India in the 21st century. The challenge here is to find a pithy title that encapsulates this in a neutral, non-partisan way that isn't totally opaque to people who aren't Indian. We need new ideas about this.I seriously considered overturning to relist, and I'm not going to do that, because it sends us back to the old choice between the two unsatisfactory titles. We've already had that conversation and we know it doesn't go anywhere helpful. Therefore we know we need to go back to the article talk page and come up with some better names.From this discussion we already know some of the characteristics a satisfactory article title would have. We know that it has to encapsulate that these are Hindu nationalists -- "Hindu terrorism", read naively, implies forced conversion of Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains; whereas these terrorists' motives are political rather than religious. It's also unsatisfactory to ascribe terrorist acts to a spice or a colour.If the article talk page discussion stalls or becomes stagnant, then I would suggest beginning a Request for Comment to ask previously uninvolved users to help workshop satisfactory titles. I'm not going to revert the move in the meantime, because that's unproductive when the community doesn't love Saffron Terror as a title either.I haven't given you a word in bold, and this is intentional. This outcome is neither "endorse", nor "overturn", nor "relist". I haven't selected any of the options from the menu at Wikipedia:Move reviews#Closing reviews because none of them resolve the problem in this case. Instead I'm providing a narrative verdict. MDT's close does not stand, but it falls forward instead of falling back: all the article titles suggested so far are unsatisfactory, so please, go back to the talk page and come up with other possible titles for this article.—— S Marshall's close of the "Hindu terorrism" move review 23:48, 29 April 2023
In this move review, the community considers whether ModernDayTrilobite's very articulate and well-explained close really reflects what the community said. Arguably it doesn't, and many editors -- too many good faith editors to disregard -- feel that this close reduces to MDT's opinion in a hat box. I have to say that the close can't stand as written. I think that's a pity, because it is a very clear close that comes with a commendably detailed explanation of its basis in policy. It was a non-admin close, and yet I wish that more admin closes looked like that.
The article we're considering was previously called "Saffron terror", which is a problematic title for several reasons that are well-explained in the move discussion that MDT closed. It has been moved to "Hindu terror", which is also problematic for other reasons that are also well-explained.
The community hasn't coalesced around one of the options here, and I think that's because none of the choices is really satisfactory. The actual subject of the article is terrorism committed by Hindu nationalist groups in India in the 21st century. The challenge here is to find a pithy title that encapsulates this in a neutral, non-partisan way that isn't totally opaque to people who aren't Indian. We need new ideas about this.
I seriously considered overturning to relist, and I'm not going to do that, because it sends us back to the old choice between the two unsatisfactory titles. We've already had that conversation and we know it doesn't go anywhere helpful. Therefore we know we need to go back to the article talk page and come up with some better names.
From this discussion we already know some of the characteristics a satisfactory article title would have. We know that it has to encapsulate that these are Hindu nationalists -- "Hindu terrorism", read naively, implies forced conversion of Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains; whereas these terrorists' motives are political rather than religious. It's also unsatisfactory to ascribe terrorist acts to a spice or a colour.
If the article talk page discussion stalls or becomes stagnant, then I would suggest beginning a Request for Comment to ask previously uninvolved users to help workshop satisfactory titles. I'm not going to revert the move in the meantime, because that's unproductive when the community doesn't love Saffron Terror as a title either.
I haven't given you a word in bold, and this is intentional. This outcome is neither "endorse", nor "overturn", nor "relist". I haven't selected any of the options from the menu at Wikipedia:Move reviews#Closing reviews because none of them resolve the problem in this case. Instead I'm providing a narrative verdict. MDT's close does not stand, but it falls forward instead of falling back: all the article titles suggested so far are unsatisfactory, so please, go back to the talk page and come up with other possible titles for this article.—— S Marshall's close of the "Hindu terorrism" move review 23:48, 29 April 2023
I have moved the page to a neutral descriptive title which should be less contentious than both "saffron terror" and "Hindu terrorism" while editors discuss potentially better titles. One such title could be "Hindutva terrorism". In my opinion "Hindu nationalist terrorism" is about equally good as "Hindutva terrorism".—Alalch E. 01:53, 30 April 2023 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20230430015300","author":"Alalch E.","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Alalch_E.-20230430015300-Move_review_close","replies":["c-Amakuru-20230430142300-Alalch_E.-20230430015300","c-Rhododendrites-20230430144700-Alalch_E.-20230430015300","c-RegentsPark-20230430180800-Alalch_E.-20230430015300","c-Kashmiri-20230430192600-Alalch_E.-20230430015300","c-CapnJackSp-20230501085500-Alalch_E.-20230430015300"]}}-->
I'm not going to revert the move in the meantime, because that's unproductive when the community doesn't love Saffron Terror as a title either
We know that it has to encapsulate that these are Hindu nationalists -- "Hindu terrorism", read naively, implies forced conversion of Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains; whereas these terrorists' motives are political rather than religious
the killings, attributed to Pakistan-backed Muslim insurgent groups
gunmen who have been identified by Indian officials as Muslim guerrillas
[survivors] said the killers struck after the villagers refused demands from the gunmen that they become Muslims and prove their conversion by eating beef. This is forbidden among Hindus, who regard cows as sacred. The survivors said that the killers forced other villagers to watch as they singled out their victims, killing many of them by cutting their throats.
Hindutva terrorism fails WP:COMMONNAME
Hindu terrorism encompasses much more than acts of terror resulting from Hindutva ideology, even if currently somewhat underserved by the current version of the article
Hindutva is a technical term that's not understandable outside of the group of Indian experts and Hindi speakers
You need to support your title, not just oppose others
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