I must've said this twice already: the supposed "dialectal map" is completely out of touch with reality and is wildly inaccurate. The extent of the Kajkavian and Chakavian-speaking areas is vastly exaggerated. Especially Chakavian, which is practically extinct (a tragedy, of course, but a real one). The map should be removed forthwith, it is highly misleading. -- Director (talk) 10:20, 23 September 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-09-23T10:20:00.000Z","author":"DIREKTOR","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-DIREKTOR-2012-09-23T10:20:00.000Z-Dialectal_map","replies":["c-Taivo-2012-09-23T10:29:00.000Z-DIREKTOR-2012-09-23T10:20:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Director"}}-->
it's quite interesting to see that you guys are still paranoid about croatian nationalists (as if its bad to care about your nation). and i really don't understand what's the big deal with acknowledging the fact that language is a sensitive subject for croats and that they object to using serbocroatian because it was used in a long campaign of linguistic violence against their native tongue. regardless of the fact that the entire continuum between bregana and šar planina is usually considered as one language. the average joe does not care about purely technical, linguistic matters but about what he sees and hears on a daily basis - product declarations are written in croatian and serbian, respectively, job offers are posted for native Croatian and Serbian speakers separately, translations for movies are provided separately and the list goes on. by making this article more in line with the articles about bosnian and serbian, so as to bring them all closer under the umbrella of serbocroatian, you are creating a false impression that the latter exists in the cognitive space of native speakers and that its use is generally accepted - which simply isn't true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.136.180.194 (talk) 22:06, 12 December 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-12-12T22:06:00.000Z","author":"93.136.180.194","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-93.136.180.194-2012-12-12T22:06:00.000Z-Dialectal_map","replies":["c-JorisvS-2012-12-12T22:21:00.000Z-93.136.180.194-2012-12-12T22:06:00.000Z"]}}-->
Could someone tell me why is Taivo changing the sentence "Croatian is a standardized form of Serbo-Croatian" to "Croatian is Serbo-Croatian language" but he doesn't do that for Bosnian and Serbian?Scrosby85 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs) 04:44, 1 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-01T04:44:00.000Z","author":"Scrosby85","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Scrosby85-2012-10-01T04:44:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":["c-DIREKTOR-2012-10-01T11:06:00.000Z-Scrosby85-2012-10-01T04:44:00.000Z"]}}-->
Excuse me Taivo but that is the most stupid explanation i have ever heard...So what if Croatian includes Kajkavian and Chakavian i don't get it?Where is the difference between "is serbocroatian language" and "is a standardized register of sc language"...Second this sentence "is a standardized register of serbocroatian language" was on Wikipedia for almost 2 years and then somebody comes and decide that it will be "is a serbocroatian" language...Sorry but that is very insulting to make exception just for Croatian and not for Bosnian and Serbian...Those three languages are all part of hybrid SerboCroatian language...So for all three languages must have three same sentences...Croatian will enter in EU as his own language and for Serbian and Bosnian is not even sure under what names will enter...I propose that untin Croatia joins EU all three languages be treated as same..I don't have nothing that Croatian be treated as SerboCroatian but annoys me when somebody (one or two people like Taivo) think that they know better from the Croatians,Serbians and Bosnians...Leave it the way it was been because this sentence has no head and tail...Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs) 11:55, 1 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-01T11:55:00.000Z","author":"Scrosby85","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Scrosby85-2012-10-01T11:55:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":[]}}-->
Guys i have no intention to make fights with you.But it simply isn't right to make exception for Croatian and not for Bosnian and Serbian...You changed that just because Kajkavian and Chakavian are part of Croatian?!They are also part of SerboCroatian...Ijust propose that all three sentences be the same for Croatian,Bosnian and Serbian...If Croatian "is serbocroatian language" then Bosnian and Serbian must also be becausse you are making people think that serbian and bosnian are different from Croatian because of not the same sentences.I see that more people on this page complained about the same situation..Take that into account not just ban people!Think about it...Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs) 12:43, 1 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-01T12:43:00.000Z","author":"Scrosby85","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Scrosby85-2012-10-01T12:43:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":[]}}-->
I made one revert on this subject and kwami reported me.Two guys have monopol on this subject and they just report people who don't agree with them.This is right at all :( Scrosby85 12:48, 1 October 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs)
Taivo you are very wrong..Croatian is a language who have three dialects...Chinese is official language in China and they have more then 50 dialects...You could write that Standard Croatian is part of SerboCroatian language and that Kajkavian and Chakavian are defined as dialects or something like that...This sentence "Croatian is SerboCroatian language" don't lead anywhere because it is not constructed well and it looks like child of 11 years old wrote it...It is very confusing... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs) 14:53, 1 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-01T14:53:00.000Z","author":"Scrosby85","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Scrosby85-2012-10-01T14:53:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":[]}}-->
And also in Croatian law Shtokavian is official dialect in Croatian language...Kajkavian and Chakavian speaking people use Shtokavian in Public life..They only use Chakavian and Kajkavian at home...So if Shtokavian is official dialect and therefore language of Croatia it should be equal as Bosnian and Serbian... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs) 14:57, 1 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-01T14:57:00.000Z","author":"Scrosby85","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Scrosby85-2012-10-01T14:57:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":["c-Taivo-2012-10-01T15:00:00.000Z-Scrosby85-2012-10-01T14:57:00.000Z"]}}-->
And what linguistic background do u have?Who are you to tell me that i don't have a clue about lingustic?Some kind of expet who doesn't know what to wrote and then just erase "standardized register of SerboCroatian" and that's it..Thinks problem is solved..And whoever sys different he is blocked or reported...That's not the way my friend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs) 15:10, 1 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-01T15:10:00.000Z","author":"Scrosby85","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Scrosby85-2012-10-01T15:10:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":[]}}-->
One more thing...You describe Croatian that it "is serbocroatian language" yet only 60% of Croats are native speakers of Shtokavian dialect...But on the other hand...85-90 Serbs and Bosniaks speak Shtokavian dialect and their languages are just "standardized register of SerboCroatian"...Where is the logic?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs) 15:50, 1 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-01T15:50:00.000Z","author":"Scrosby85","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Scrosby85-2012-10-01T15:50:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":["c-HammerFilmFan-2012-10-01T16:11:00.000Z-Scrosby85-2012-10-01T15:50:00.000Z"]}}-->
HammerFilmFan...I know all of this..I'm not stupid...I'm not arguing or denying that Croatian is PART(not IS) of SerboCroatian...Im just saying that it is very confusing,not to say stupid to put sentence like "Croatian IS serbocroatian language"...It sounds very akward...I'm just saying that it would be better if it stays this way or to put that "Croatian is PART of SerboCroatian language"...I'm not nationalist and i don't hate anyone...I'm just saying that sentence what i reverted salt on open wound because bosnian and serbian articles stayed the same...Scrosby85 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs) 17:43, 1 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-01T17:43:00.000Z","author":"Scrosby85","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Scrosby85-2012-10-01T17:43:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":[]}}-->
If u look at this page:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_standard_Bosnian,_Croatian_and_Serbian
You will see that is is all the same languages..No need to put Croatian aside and write confusing sentences and on other wikipedia article about languages it says different...You get my point? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs) 17:46, 1 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-01T17:46:00.000Z","author":"Scrosby85","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Scrosby85-2012-10-01T17:46:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":["c-Taivo-2012-10-01T17:52:00.000Z-Scrosby85-2012-10-01T17:46:00.000Z"]}}-->
Taivo Once again!...An average man come to Croatian language sectionand see "Croatian is SerboCroatian language" then he goes to Serbian or Bosnian language section and he sees "Serbian/Bosnian is a standardized register of SerboCroatian language"...Now my question is what did u prove with that and how?Tell me please because you didn't do absolutely nothing with that sentence...If u go to link above what i posted it clearly says next:"Standard Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin, and Serbian are different national variants and official registers of the pluricentric Serbo-Croatian language" So why changing this when on other wikipedia articles it clearly states different.The best way would be to put that sentence.I'm not trying to win this or something.Im just trying to be logic.Ok...Cheers mate — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs) 18:10, 1 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-01T18:10:00.000Z","author":"Scrosby85","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Scrosby85-2012-10-01T18:10:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":["c-Taivo-2012-10-02T10:24:00.000Z-Scrosby85-2012-10-01T18:10:00.000Z"]}}-->
And how many times must i say to you that you didn't do anything with this?It is complicated as it is..Now you are changing Croatian but not Serbian or Bosnian...Who are you to decide that?Linguists all over the wold treat Serbian,Bosnian and Croatian as one language just you found something that just you know and you don't give up...And if someone try to say different you report him...Once again there is no need to make this confusing situtation over this issue more confusing by separating Croatian from Serbian and Bosnian so people get even more confused...I got here because my friend(from Norway!) on Youtube said me that he looked article about Croatian on Wikipedia and he asked why is it different from other three languages..Otherwise i wouldn't be here..Use your logic... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs) 14:10, 2 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-02T14:10:00.000Z","author":"Scrosby85","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Scrosby85-2012-10-02T14:10:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":[]}}-->
Once again!You didn't do much with this sentence because to normal people who don't know much about languages from this area,when they come to language section they see from Croatian that "is the SC language" and then they go to Serbian section and see "is a standardized register of the SC language"...And what they conclude?Croatian is not standardized register of SC?Or that Serbian and Bosnian are not SC languages because of different sentences...You didn't explain anything with that sentence..use you head — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs) 14:16, 2 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-02T14:16:00.000Z","author":"Scrosby85","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Scrosby85-2012-10-02T14:16:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":[]}}-->
So what now Taivo?You don't know what to say and you just ignore me?That is what you do? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs) 13:19, 4 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-04T13:19:00.000Z","author":"Scrosby85","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Scrosby85-2012-10-04T13:19:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":["c-Kwamikagami-2012-10-04T16:18:00.000Z-Scrosby85-2012-10-04T13:19:00.000Z"]}}-->
I have clearly asked what did he do with this sentence ...Please explain it to me...What does an average man concludes when he see sentence "Croatian is the SerboCroatian language" and when he goes to Serbian or Bosnian section language..Because 90% people doesn't get that i assure you...Just Taivo or whoever made this funny thing knows better then 90% linguists of the world who treat theses two languages as subgroup of SerboCroatian just like Kajkavian and Chakavian dialects..And he made that sentence because i will quote him:"Croats say that Kajkavian and Chakavian are part of Croatian language"?!.What kind of statement is that?I bet that 95% of Croatian citizens doesn't want their language to be called SerboCroatian.So if we look it that way you should remove SerboCroatian att first place... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs) 21:52, 4 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-04T21:52:00.000Z","author":"Scrosby85","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Scrosby85-2012-10-04T21:52:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":["c-JorisvS-2012-10-04T22:14:00.000Z-Scrosby85-2012-10-04T21:52:00.000Z"]}}-->
JorisvS I think that even you don't know what you wrote now...So it doesn't matter what i say or other people it will be like this,it will be like this and that's it?I am talking about average persons who comes to this article and see this...Where is that explained in article what you said now?I didn't see it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs) 14:25, 5 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-05T14:25:00.000Z","author":"Scrosby85","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Scrosby85-2012-10-05T14:25:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":[]}}-->
Kwami you should write a book about this subject because as i can see you and Taivo are well known linguists..In fact one of the best there are..And other linguists and people don't know a clue about this subject so you will not listen any other opinion and it will be like you said.No matter what people say and if 99% of people don't agree with you.Nice job.You said let's talk about this subject and what di u do?You are ignoring people..You are shame for Wikipedia! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs) 17:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-06T17:50:00.000Z","author":"Scrosby85","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Scrosby85-2012-10-06T17:50:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":["c-Taivo-2012-10-07T03:47:00.000Z-Scrosby85-2012-10-06T17:50:00.000Z"]}}-->
Taivo excuse me but you are the last person here to call yourself linguist or that you know something about that topic.You are just ignoring people opinion and that's i.Nobody agreed to the article as it is now on Wikipedia but you still made it and keep it that way...You are disgrace... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talk • contribs) 22:45, 7 October 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-07T22:45:00.000Z","author":"Scrosby85","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Scrosby85-2012-10-07T22:45:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":["c-HammerFilmFan-2012-10-20T15:36:00.000Z-Scrosby85-2012-10-07T22:45:00.000Z"]}}-->
I've been reading through the discussion and I must note there is something to this. What does "as spoken by Croats" mean? If its the same language (which certainly appears to be the case), isn't this a FORK? Shouldn't it be merged into the Serbo-Croatian article? -- Director (talk) 21:03, 14 November 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-11-14T21:03:00.000Z","author":"DIREKTOR","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-DIREKTOR-2012-11-14T21:03:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":["c-Taivo-2012-11-14T23:05:00.000Z-DIREKTOR-2012-11-14T21:03:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Director"}}-->
"The planetary-popular Wikipedia refuses to give up on the Serbo-Croatian language. When one searches for the Croatian language on Wikipedia, he gets a page where its only possible to choose the Serbo-Croatian language [they're talking about the Croatian grammar redirect, and misleadingly presenting it as the Croatian language article]."
I don't have a strong opinion either way. Narrowing the scope to Standard Croatian would require little change to the article; the mention of Kajkavian and Chakavian in the history section works for either conception, I think. Restricting the four national-language articles to the standards probably would allow them to be more consistent. I'm not sure moving the article to "Standard Croatian" would be a good idea, however. I think it would probably be better to leave it where it is, and to simply explain in the lead (and perhaps in a hat note) that this article deals primarily with the standard language. — kwami (talk) 00:12, 19 November 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-11-19T00:12:00.000Z","author":"Kwamikagami","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kwamikagami-2012-11-19T00:12:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":["c-JorisvS-2012-11-19T09:15:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2012-11-19T00:12:00.000Z"],"displayName":"kwami"}}-->
After a significant pause I must return to the original problem: "Croatian (hrvatski jezik) is the Serbo-Croatian language as spoken by Croats,..." cannot stand because of the alphabet difference - Cyrillic and Roman. I mean language, since the mankind evolved and invented writing, is not only the spoken language but it is also the written language. Therefore we are missing a crucial point with this substitution of the whole with just its part. Also, since the creation of Montenegrin and introduction of the ⟨ś⟩ and ⟨ź⟩, Croatian variant is missing at least two more sounds in its alphabet. Not to mention the already mentioned technicality: non-Croats in Croatia (or anywhere else) that speak Croatian variant are lumped under the Croat ethnicity with the existing wording. So we cannot equate Serbo-Croatian and Croatian with a simple note that the latter is the former when/as spoken by Croats. We should return to previous wording or invent a better one. --biblbroks (talk) 21:20, 30 November 2012 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-11-30T21:20:00.000Z","author":"Biblbroks","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Biblbroks-2012-11-30T21:20:00.000Z-\"Is\"","replies":["c-Taivo-2012-11-30T23:05:00.000Z-Biblbroks-2012-11-30T21:20:00.000Z"]}}-->
I don't know how best to explain this part. In Vojvodina, it has official status and this region is home to the vast majority of Croatians in Serbia. There are however thousands more in Belgrade and the rest of the country, so Croatian is also a recognised minority language in that country. Worth listing twice in infobox? Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 15:05, 17 January 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-01-17T15:05:00.000Z","author":"Evlekis","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Evlekis-2013-01-17T15:05:00.000Z-Twin_status_in_Serbia","replies":[]}}-->
It looks like there's a healthy edit war over the issue of whether to move a large chunk of the article to Serbo-Croatian (diff). I don't have an informed opinion on the matter, but the interested parties should probably talk it out here before more reverts are made. ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:30, 29 January 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-01-29T22:30:00.000Z","author":"Adjwilley","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Adjwilley-2013-01-29T22:30:00.000Z-Moving_material_to_Serbo-Croatian","replies":["c-Tomobe03-2013-01-29T22:45:00.000Z-Adjwilley-2013-01-29T22:30:00.000Z","c-Kwamikagami-2013-01-29T22:58:00.000Z-Adjwilley-2013-01-29T22:30:00.000Z"]}}-->
There is a language of which both Croatian and Serbian are ethnic terms. This language has no good name. We use SC here on WP. Whether the name is a political creation is irrelevant: the language isn't the name.
Now, this article is not about standard Croatian, but about all varieties of SC spoken by Croats. AFAIK, the early development of literary SC took place outside the Ottoman Empire. Since this is what we are covering in the 'early history' section, I can see why it might go here. On the other hand, it is the history of the SC language, so it could go there as well. This is comparable to the history of Hindustani, which one could argue should be the history of Urdu. (Hindi history only goes back a century, like AFAICT Serbian history does.) I reverted the recent restoration of the material, and then reverted myself, as I think we need some intelligent discussion on the issue. Intelligent. Much of the discussion on these articles has been idiotic, and any argument based on the claim that SC was "invented" etc. are not worth responding to. Most of the linguistically informed editors seem to support the move. I'd like to hold off to see what those supporting its retention here have to say.
Just to clarify, SC is the abstandsprache. Standard Croatian is an ausbausprache. The Croatian covered in this article is neither: it's not really a language at all, but the speech of an ethnicity. (I can understand the argument made earlier that this article should be restricted to the ausbausprache, but that's a different discussion.) — kwami (talk) 02:11, 30 January 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-01-30T02:11:00.000Z","author":"Kwamikagami","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kwamikagami-2013-01-30T02:11:00.000Z-Moving_material_to_Serbo-Croatian","replies":[],"displayName":"kwami"}}-->
I'm not very familiar with specific linguistic terms, so I've been trying to steer clear of these endless flamewars (which are another inherent reason to steer clear), but I saw Tomobe03's complaint and given that I know that he's generally acting in good-faith, I can't really stand idle while he's bashed for apparently trying to apply the basic principles of the verifiability policy. What should be in the article called "Croatian language" is not what we decide, but what's in reliable sources. We shouldn't even be deciding on whether there's a 1:1 mapping between the meaning of the term "Croatian language" and the meaning of the Croatian term "hrvatski jezik" - instead a secondary source should be found that makes that mapping for us, and cited. If there's a discrepancy in the sources between the two, we should describe it; even better, if there's a source describing such a discrepancy, we should cite it. That is the only way to keep some sanity in the matter. I like the call for intelligent discussion, but I fear it will soon devolve into a less intelligent discussion, like most before it - everyone who has enough free time to write something on Talk can better invest that time in finding a reliable source to use to support any claims they wanted to make on Talk - in the article space, where it's actually useful for the encyclopedia. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:24, 30 January 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-01-30T09:24:00.000Z","author":"Joy","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Joy-2013-01-30T09:24:00.000Z-Moving_material_to_Serbo-Croatian","replies":["c-Tomobe03-2013-01-30T11:24:00.000Z-Joy-2013-01-30T09:24:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Joy [shallot]"}}-->
Oh, boy. This is terrible. Who would have thought that Croats revenge-trolling amongst themselves would lead to this? --Pepsi Lite (talk) 12:14, 30 January 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-01-30T12:14:00.000Z","author":"Pepsi Lite","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Pepsi_Lite-2013-01-30T12:14:00.000Z-Moving_material_to_Serbo-Croatian","replies":["c-Sokac121-2013-01-30T14:45:00.000Z-Pepsi_Lite-2013-01-30T12:14:00.000Z"]}}-->
Taivo weak these arguments. That's what you're bragging that linguist, no argument. You can not impose your views--Sokac121 (talk) 19:37, 30 January 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-01-30T19:37:00.000Z","author":"Sokac121","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sokac121-2013-01-30T19:37:00.000Z-Moving_material_to_Serbo-Croatian","replies":["c-Kwamikagami-2013-01-30T20:22:00.000Z-Sokac121-2013-01-30T19:37:00.000Z"]}}-->
Kwami, a bit above you said "Now, this article is not about standard Croatian, but about all varieties of SC spoken by Croats.". What would be the unique (i.e. non-forked) content for this article besides Standard Croatian? --JorisvS (talk) 23:46, 30 January 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-01-30T23:46:00.000Z","author":"JorisvS","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-JorisvS-2013-01-30T23:46:00.000Z-Moving_material_to_Serbo-Croatian","replies":["c-Kwamikagami-2013-01-31T02:26:00.000Z-JorisvS-2013-01-30T23:46:00.000Z"]}}-->
Director does not tell the truth. Census of Kingdom of Slavonia and Croatian 1910. (Austro-Hungarian). Croatian language there before 1941, Croatian and Serbian separate. Direktor certainly understand Hungarian language? --Sokac121 (talk) 19:09, 31 January 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-01-31T19:09:00.000Z","author":"Sokac121","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sokac121-2013-01-31T19:09:00.000Z-Moving_material_to_Serbo-Croatian","replies":["c-DIREKTOR-2013-01-31T19:27:00.000Z-Sokac121-2013-01-31T19:09:00.000Z"]}}-->
Fejstkajkafski and Director appear to have the most informed opinions on this. — kwami (talk) 07:28, 1 February 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-02-01T07:28:00.000Z","author":"Kwamikagami","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kwamikagami-2013-02-01T07:28:00.000Z-Moving_material_to_Serbo-Croatian","replies":["c-Sokac121-2013-02-01T15:09:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2013-02-01T07:28:00.000Z","c-Joy-2013-02-01T09:46:00.000Z-Kwamikagami-2013-02-01T07:28:00.000Z"],"displayName":"kwami"}}-->
Incidentally folks, here's a translation of the thread Sokac121 linked above. The conversation is between User:IvanOS, User:Sokac121 and LeoZ (who I don't think has an account over here):
I don't know if anyone read the article on the English Wikipedia, but there in the first sentence it states: 'Croatian (hrvatski jezik) is the Serbo-Croatian language as spoken by Croats.' Also the English Wiktionary only has Serbo-Croatian.
I'm no expert, and even though some kind of Serbo-Croatian is still spoken, ie. Croatian polluted with Serbian, that article is a disgrace, impertinent, and spits in the face of the ten-century-long development of the Croatian language.
Any comments on that? -LeoZ (razgovor) 06:53, 20 January 2013 (CET)
Denial of the Croatian language continues. The latest in the string of absurd edits was posted by JorisvS (from the Netherlands), who transferred the information on the Baška tablet from the Croatian language to the Serbo-Croatian language article [5][6]. With that he also replaced the word Croatian with Serbo-Croatian (The beginning of the Croatian written language can be traced... > The beginning of written Serbo-Croatian can be traced...), which will make the uninformed think that this Serbo-Croatian came into being in the 9th century, which of course isn't true. I was undoing those edits, but then some foreigner Taivo and the aforementioned DIREKTOR reverted me. This obviously won't go as long as I and another user fight against it. Therefore I repeat and request that as many users as possible join in on this. If anything is unclear, you can come to me. Thank you in advance! --IvanOS 19:55, 29 January 2013 (CET)
Gripping stuff. I particularly like the canvassing and ridicule.. -- Director (talk) 19:16, 1 February 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-02-01T19:16:00.000Z","author":"DIREKTOR","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-DIREKTOR-2013-02-01T19:16:00.000Z-Moving_material_to_Serbo-Croatian","replies":["c-Joy-2013-02-11T08:49:00.000Z-DIREKTOR-2013-02-01T19:16:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Director"}}-->
It's terrible how article has changed in a short time. What has changed in the world, whether by prominent linguists learn something new. This explanation [9] very nice (kwami: exactly: there has been no decision to keep this duplicate here.) And who decided to move?. I thought that wikipedia is not a place to publish their own ideas.--Sokac121 (talk) 20:04, 11 February 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-02-11T20:04:00.000Z","author":"Sokac121","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Sokac121-2013-02-11T20:04:00.000Z-Moving_material_to_Serbo-Croatian","replies":["c-DIREKTOR-2013-02-12T18:25:00.000Z-Sokac121-2013-02-11T20:04:00.000Z"]}}-->
" Croatian is a standardized register of a language which is also spoken by Serbs, Bosniaks, and Montenegrins. In English, this language is generally called "Serbo-Croat(ian)". Use of that term in English, which dates back at least to 1864 and was modeled on both Croatian and Serbian nationalists of the time, is not a political endorsement of Yugoslavia, but is simply a label. As long as it remains the common name of the language in English, it will continue to be used here on Wikipedia. " - And that's how it is. By every academic standard, linguistic and history. HammerFilmFan (talk) 23:13, 30 January 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-01-30T23:13:00.000Z","author":"HammerFilmFan","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-HammerFilmFan-2013-01-30T23:13:00.000Z-The_ruling_at_the_top_of_the_Talk_Page_on_this_article_should_be_clear_to_all:","replies":["c-Herr_chagall-2013-03-09T08:49:00.000Z-HammerFilmFan-2013-01-30T23:13:00.000Z","c-93.136.123.109-2013-02-26T16:57:00.000Z-HammerFilmFan-2013-01-30T23:13:00.000Z"]}}-->
I do not understand why we are so eager in our insistence to call Croatian language Serbo-Croatian when there are no reason for it, nor French, nor Italian, nor German Wikipaedia, calls Croatian language a Serbo-Croatian. We need to understand poor Croats and their wish to saperate their language from Serbian, which is not so hard if we try. Thus it whould be much easier for Croats, and for us, to call Croatian language just South Slavic.
Anonymous
To call West South Slavic language Slovene, and everything else, is complete idiotcy, there are not only two languages in West South Slavic but three, Štokavian (Sroatian, Serbian, Montenegrian, Bosnian), Kajkavian (Slovenian, Croatian) and Čakavian (Croatian). So if there is language so called Serbo-Croatian, then there must be language called Sloveno-Croatian, because Kajkavian dialect of Croatian language differs from Slovenian in a same amount as modern standard Croatian differs form modern Serbian. By this politics of some Serbo-Croatian language, his native speakers (Serbs, Bosniaks, Montenegrians) do not speek or understand ther own language (none Štokavian speakers, except Croats understand Kajkavian and Čakavian dialects, and they are in need of translation) that is why Croatian language is unique (Croatian language is Kaj-Što-Čakavian), while Serbian, Bosnian... are all Štokavian, while Slovenian is Kajkavian language. This is something no one seems to understand. By this logic then Sloven language is also Serbo-Croatian.... this all is just nonesense. I really don't understand why there is such eagerness to call Croatian language a Serbo-Croatian. Have anyone read Držić, Marulić, Gundulić, Zrinski, Frankopan, Brezovački, Krleža? If had he will see that Croatian language in his pure, historic form is so much more rich, stylistic and linguistically diverse that Serbian, Bosnian, Montenegrian, Slovenian languages combine. 46.229.244.246 (talk) 21:09, 14 March 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-03-14T21:09:00.000Z","author":"46.229.244.246","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-46.229.244.246-2013-03-14T21:09:00.000Z-Understanding","replies":["c-Pepsi_Lite-2013-03-14T22:41:00.000Z-46.229.244.246-2013-03-14T21:09:00.000Z"]}}-->
There are some serious issues in understanding, far as my eyes see, Taivo in actuallity knows very lettle about West South Slavic languages and complex history they had. First of all from very early age there are only three nations and ethnic grups in Southern East Europe there where Bulgarians, Serbs and Croats (Slovenians did not exist before 19th century, nither did Bosniaks, nor Motenegrians, nor Macedonians) and of course nither did they languages. Second Slovenian is not Kajkavian, OK nither is Serbian Štokavian, Serbian language is Serbian, Slovenian language is Slovene, and they both have one major dialect, whilest Croatian language have three major dialects (that is what you as I see do not understand).
Serbian: Danas je lep dan. Slovenian: Danes je lepi dan. Croatian: Danas je liep dan. Danas je lip dan. Danes je lepi dan. English: Today is a beautiful day.
46.229.244.246 (talk) 01:29, 15 March 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-03-15T01:29:00.000Z","author":"46.229.244.246","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-46.229.244.246-2013-03-15T01:29:00.000Z-Understanding","replies":["c-Taivo-2013-03-15T07:00:00.000Z-46.229.244.246-2013-03-15T01:29:00.000Z"]}}-->
Again complete misunderstanding. I was never tallking about Standard Croatian, Standard Croatian is more or less completely identical with Serbian, Bosnian... I was tallking about Croatian language, Yes the language spoken among people, not some idiotic standard, that in Croatia does not exist, the only one using the standard is media and government, no one speaks Standard, Standard was in the first place made only because of some Yugoslav unity, that is why today in Croatia the standard language is more Serbian then Croatian. The Croatian language in his pure form is completely different form Serbian, but You wouldn't know that, would you. You are very smart and You know all differences between Croatian, Serbian and Slovenian language (very interesting since You don't speak either of them). Have You read Croatian books, poetry... and then compared to Serbian, to Slovenian? Far as I know Serbs can't read Croatian poetry, unless they have a meter thick dictionary, and even then they would miss much of it.
Serbian and Standard Croatian: Dugo sam se bojao i nadao, slovo sam nadi, strahu dao; srce je prazno, srećno/sretno nije, natrag nadu i strah si želi. Slovenian: Sem dolgo upal in se bal, slovo sem upu, strahu dal; srce je prazno, srečno ni, nazaj si up in strah želi. Croatian Što: Sam se dugo ufao i se bojao, slovo sam ufu, strahu dao; srce je prazno, srjetno/srjećno ni, natrag si ufanje i strah želi. Croatian Ča: San se duga ufa i se ba, slovo san ufu, strahu da; srce je prazno, srićno ni, natrag si uf i strah želi. Croatian Kaj: Sem se dulgo/dolgo ufal/upal i se bojal/bal, slovo sem ufu/upu, strahu dal, srce je prazno, srečno/srećno ni, nazaj si uf/up i strah želi. English: I have long hoped and feared, I give letter to hope, to fear; heart is empty, it is not happy, it wants back its hope and fear.
46.229.244.231 (talk) 18:52, 15 March 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-03-15T18:52:00.000Z","author":"46.229.244.231","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-46.229.244.231-2013-03-15T18:52:00.000Z-Understanding","replies":["c-Taivo-2013-03-15T22:12:00.000Z-46.229.244.231-2013-03-15T18:52:00.000Z"]}}-->
Tell me please, what would be proper linguistic evidence. I really don't understand your eagerness to deny existance of Croatian language. Croatian language is made of his three major dialects, and it is not a language which was artificialy made in 20th century. Serbian language has only one dialect, as well as Slovenian. One dialect of Croatian language is very similar to Serbian (Štokavian), one is very similar to Slovenian (kajkavian), and the third Croatian dialect is somewhere in between. If there weren't any nations, there would probably be three languages, one Kajkavian, one Štokavian, one Čakavian, unfortunately this is not the case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.229.244.231 (talk) 23:08, 15 March 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-03-15T23:08:00.000Z","author":"46.229.244.231","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-46.229.244.231-2013-03-15T23:08:00.000Z-Understanding","replies":["c-Taivo-2013-03-16T02:51:00.000Z-46.229.244.231-2013-03-15T23:08:00.000Z"]}}-->
Call a Croat 'Balkan' here in Croatia and he'll surely buy you a beer or something. lol — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.201.98 (talk) 11:44, 16 March 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-03-16T11:44:00.000Z","author":"78.0.201.98","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-78.0.201.98-2013-03-16T11:44:00.000Z-Understanding","replies":["c-Herr_chagall-2013-03-20T07:26:00.000Z-78.0.201.98-2013-03-16T11:44:00.000Z"]}}-->
somebody fix this dammit! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.139.77.11 (talk) 19:10, 13 April 2013 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-04-13T19:10:00.000Z","author":"93.139.77.11","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-93.139.77.11-2013-04-13T19:10:00.000Z-Croatian_is_not_just_a_standard_language","replies":["c-JorisvS-2013-04-14T14:21:00.000Z-93.139.77.11-2013-04-13T19:10:00.000Z"]}}-->
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