Spammers: I would like for this page to stay reasonably clean. If you have business with me, feel free to leave a comment, else please move on. Please ignore the gigantic eye in the corner with the pump-action shotgun.
Unsigned messages will be ignored. You can sign your messages with four tildes (~~~~). I reserve the right to disruptively eliminate gigantic blobs of wiki-markup from signatures on a whim if I think they're cluttering up my talk page.
Burlington and Lamoille Railroad
I've looked over Edward Lewis' book Vermont's Covered Bridge Road for mention of operations out of Cambridge Junction, but didn't find anything more than than this mention of the junction (on pages 34 & 36) and a few photos of the station at that location:
By 1938 the passenger train was running from St. Johnsbury only as far west as Cambridge Junction where passengers could change to a Central Vermont Railroad (successor to the Burlington & Lamoille Railroad) train and continue on to Burlington.
I'm sorry for the delayed response, but Lewis' book has no index; so I had the not unpleasant task of re-reading the text. Thewellman (talk) 01:28, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You are invited to join the Wikimedia NYC community for our WikiWednesday Salon, with in-person at Brooklyn Public Library by Grand Army Plaza, in the Central Library's Info Commons Lab, as well as an online-based participation option. No experience of anything at all is required. All are welcome!
We are proud to announce that monthly PIZZA has returned!
All attendees are subject to Wikimedia NYC's Code of Conduct. In addition, to participate in person you should be vaccinated and also be sure to respect others' personal space, and we may limit overall attendance size if appropriate. Brooklyn Public Library encourages the wearing of masks when indoors, and especially be mindful of those in your proximity.
The photo is dated June 2005, and since it's in an entire album of a single vacation, I'm inclined to believe it. But didn't Amtrak stop running head-end cars in 2004?
I'm not aware of Amtrak ever running TOFC, rather than roadrailers
Four Superliners is awfully short for the Empire Builder
The Empire Builder was scheduled to hit Sandpoint in the dead of night. The sun angle here suggests afternoon.
@Pi.1415926535 I agree that a non-revenue move makes the most sense. Four Superliners is plausible for the Portland section, but it's in the wrong place for that, and as you say the light is all wrong. That said, I was on a dreadfully late westbound Empire Builder in 2009 and crossed that bridge in daylight. Amtrak had roadrailers but not TOFC, not that I'm aware of. Mackensen(talk)20:27, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We are proud to announce that monthly food has returned!
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Somewhat by accident, I ended up rewriting the history of the Chicagoan and Kansas Cityan. At this point I might as well go for GA - adding a station list, RDT, route description, and map should be pretty easy. However, I'm short on sources for equipment; Classic American Streamliners doesn't have anything of note. Would you mind a quick perusal through your collection? It looks like you were the one to add the Wayner source.
@Pi.1415926535 looks like I added that reference when I wrote the Big Dome article; Wayner should have more on the initial equipment sets. I also own Reed's book. I have Wayner and Hough, Santa Fe passenger train consists, January 10, 1937, which is too old, and Passenger Train Consists; 1923-1973, which didn't sample either train. Yenne's Santa Fe Chiefs is another potential source. I can also check the Trains and Classic Trains archives. Mackensen(talk)23:36, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We are proud to announce that monthly free food has returned!
All attendees are subject to Wikimedia NYC's Code of Conduct. In addition, to participate in person you should be vaccinated and also be sure to respect others' personal space, and we may limit overall attendance size if appropriate. Prime Produce encourages the wearing of masks when indoors, and especially be mindful of those in your proximity.
Bring your own laptop if you can, the Library can only provide laptops on a first-come, first-served basis. Entrance to the Library is free; when you arrive, alert Security that you are here for the event. Please enter through the Mosholu Entrance at 2950 Southern Boulevard.
Thank you for reaching out. I acknowledge your concern and I think you're reading a meaning that isn't there, though I could be wrong. Mackensen(talk)22:16, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All attendees are subject to Wikimedia NYC's Code of Conduct. In addition, to participate in person, you should be vaccinated and also be sure to respect others' personal space, and we may limit overall attendance size if appropriate.
This is the first big summer Wiknic since the 2019 edition and will feature an edit-a-thon focused on Governors Island and ArtCrawl Harlem, Depths of Wikipedia (recently of perpetual stew fame), as well as plenty more food topics drawing on the potluck ethos. All are welcome, new and experienced!
@Gonnym Unused and presently unusable--I did a few searches to see if the source is used in the text. I checked on the French Wikipedia, and the only citation to any of Davies books appears to be on fr:P8 ex-Prusse, and it's not to the book in question. Mackensen(talk)20:42, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is the first summer Wiknic since the 2019 edition and will feature an edit-a-thon focused Governors Island and ArtCrawl Harlem, Depths of Wikipedia and perpetual stew, as well as plenty more food. All are welcome, new and experienced!
The Members' Meeting is similar to other WikiWednesday meetups, except that its primary function is to elect a new Board of Directors. We will elect five board seats. After being elected, those elected can potentially appoint more seats. We will also have a fun WikiWednesday!
Election info:
To run for election or to vote, you must be a dues-paying member of Wikimedia New York City, having renewed in the past 12 months.
Voting will be both online, via emailed ballots from the ElectionBuddy service, and in-person.
The poll will be open for the 48 hours between 8pm EDT on September 18 and 8pm EDT on September 20.
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FYI, I've created User:Pi.1415926535/US Railway Guides as an index of the various guides. I'm focusing on the 1850s to 1880s for individual links, since the external indexes at the bottom are fairly comprehensive from the 1880s on. Feel free to add any others you find, especially early ones.
Sounds good to me. My interest is primarily before 1880 - after that, there's pretty good map coverage for the areas that interest me - but you're welcome to make it suit your needs as well. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 03:16, 19 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sun Oct 1: NYC Hispanic/Latinx Heritage Month 2023
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Hi, I recently edited this template to hide minor stops, much like what I had done with The Canadian. I still don't quite understand the markup though - the line does not quite match up at Gladstone station. Your help is appreciated - thanks! 162 etc. (talk) 16:36, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
At both events, all attendees are subject to Wikimedia NYC's Code of Conduct. In addition, to participate in person, you should be vaccinated and also be sure to respect others' personal space, and we may limit overall attendance size if appropriate.
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Just to give you a heads up, I wasn’t the one that started the issue, 611fan2001 was the one that caused it. I was only trying to follow the policy and to prevent the article from being vandalized. He’s been doing this for four years already, when ever he sees and edit he doesn’t like, he would go to their talk page and send the user a rude and nasty message very aggressively. When users try to reason with him over his aggressive behavior, he will not accept criticism. But don’t get me wrong. I know yelling at someone and attacking them on their talk page is not ok. Because he still hasn’t been warned yet abd it still baffles my mind that you guys haven’t warn him about his behavior yet, because attacking users on their talk page is not ok and it’s against Wikipedia’s policy to do so. 199.180.167.20 (talk) 19:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
First off, you didn’t even acknowledge what I wrote and said about 611fan2001. He’s been doing this for four years already, he still hasn’t warned yet over his aggressive behavior. He literally attacks users on their talk page and tells what to do and what not to do, as I stated, he won’t take criticism whenever users try to reason with him. Because attacking users on their talk pages is not ok. 199.180.167.20 (talk) 19:54, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You're making assertions without diffs. There's nothing for me to respond to. For me, the important thing is you're making a change that doesn't have consensus on the talk page of the article. That's what really matters. People don't agree with your reading of the sources. That's where you should focus your efforts. Mackensen(talk)19:57, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This has nothing to do with the article changes, again, it’s 611fan2001 that needs to disciplined for his aggressive behavior. This behavior of his is not ok, I don’t have a problem of him following the Wikipedia policy, that I’m fine with, it’s his aggressive behavior that needs to be changed. Because it’s not ok to talk aggressive to users on their talk pages. 199.180.167.20 (talk) 20:50, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've asked you for diffs in a few places; you're not willing to provide any. I've suggested that you engage on the talk page; you're reverting instead. This won't get you anywhere. Mackensen(talk)21:23, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for standing up for me. He’s still the same self-absorbed user for not listening to a word that I just said from late 2022. 🤦♂️ 611fan2001 (talk) 22:38, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This disambiguation page contains the primary topic and one other topic for the ambiguous title and no other topics can be found within a reasonable time.
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Hello! Voting in the 2023 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 11 December 2023. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
You are invited to join the Wikimedia NYC community for NYC Hacking Night at Prime Produce in Hell's Kitchen, Manhattan. This event is a successor to our inaugural December 2023 Hacking Night. It is intended primarily for technical contributors, though newcomers are welcome as well!
WikiWednesday is back this month! You are invited to join the Wikimedia NYC community for our WikiWednesday Salon at Prime Produce in Hell's Kitchen, Manhattan, with an online-based participation option also available. No experience of anything at all is required. All are welcome!
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@Antny08 Please have a look at WP:CLOSEAFD. If I were closing the discussion, I would say that a consensus had been reached to delete, not redirect. As a participant in the discussion, it wouldn't be proper for me to close it. You're both a participant and the primary author of the article, so it's not proper for you to close it either. Deletion discussions typically run for seven days. Be patient. Mackensen(talk)14:02, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The event will feature lightning talks and a Wiki-fashion show, for which you are encouraged to dress in your finest Wikimedia clothing and accessories (bags, buttons, even books), or clothing connected to the topics you edit on wiki projects.
All attendees are subject to Wikimedia NYC's Code of Conduct. In addition, to participate in person you should be vaccinated and also be sure to respect others' personal space, and we may limit overall attendance size if appropriate.
All attendees are subject to Wikimedia NYC's Code of Conduct. In addition, to participate in person, you should be vaccinated and be sure to respect others' personal space, and we may limit overall attendance size if appropriate.
Hi Mackensen, I came over here because you're already interacting with an individual who's been trying to contact Amanda duPont - they're using the accounts User:Sikobuhle and User:Mavela buhle as well as an IP. At one point, they added their name [1]. Since Canterbury Tail had a theory they could be a minor I did a quick Google and although they are an adult, it appears they may have some intellectual difficulties. To me it feels like the self-outing should probably be revdel'd if this is the case; I didn't want to post on AN/I because of how visible it is, hence this comment. If this isn't revdel-worthy, sorry for taking up your time! StartGrammarTime (talk) 04:27, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
RFA2024 update: no longer accepting new proposals in phase I
Hey there! This is to let you know that phase I of the 2024 requests for adminship (RfA) review is now no longer accepting new proposals. Lots of proposals remain open for discussion, and the current round of review looks to be on a good track towards making significant progress towards improving RfA's structure and environment. I'd like to give my heartfelt thanks to everyone who has given us their idea for change to make RfA better, and the same to everyone who has given the necessary feedback to improve those ideas. The following proposals remain open for discussion:
Proposals 3 and 3b, initiated by Barkeep49 and Usedtobecool, respectively, provide for trials of discussion-only periods at RfA. The first would add three extra discussion-only days to the beginning, while the second would convert the first two days to discussion-only.
Proposal 5, initiated by SilkTork, provides for a trial of RfAs without threaded discussion in the voting sections.
Proposals 6c and 6d, initiated by BilledMammal, provide for allowing users to be selected as provisional admins for a limited time through various concrete selection criteria and smaller-scale vetting.
Proposal 7, initiated by Lee Vilenski, provides for the "General discussion" section being broken up with section headings.
Proposal 9b, initiated by Reaper Eternal, provides for the requirement that allegations of policy violation be substantiated with appropriate links to where the alleged misconduct occured.
Proposals 12c, 21, and 21b, initiated by City of Silver, Ritchie333, and HouseBlaster, respectively, provide for reducing the discretionary zone, which currently extends from 65% to 75%. The first would reduce it 65%–70%, the second would reduce it to 50%–66%, and the third would reduce it to 60%–70%.
Proposal 13, initiated by Novem Lingaue, provides for periodic, privately balloted admin elections.
Proposal 14, initiated by Kusma, provides for the creation of some minimum suffrage requirements to cast a vote.
Proposals 16 and 16c, initiated by Thebiguglyalien and Soni, respectively, provide for community-based admin desysop procedures. 16 would desysop where consensus is established in favor at the administrators' noticeboard; 16c would allow a petition to force reconfirmation.
Proposal 16e, initiated by BilledMammal, would extend the recall procedures of 16 to bureaucrats.
Proposal 17, initiated by SchroCat, provides for "on-call" admins and 'crats to monitor RfAs for decorum.
Proposal 25, initiated by Femke, provides for the requirement that nominees be extended-confirmed in addition to their nominators.
Proposal 27, initiated by WereSpielChequers, provides for the creation of a training course for admin hopefuls, as well as periodic retraining to keep admins from drifting out of sync with community norms.
To read proposals that were closed as unsuccessful, please see Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I/Closed proposals. You are cordially invited once again to participate in the open discussions; when phase I ends, phase II will review the outcomes of trial proposals and refine the implementation details of other proposals. Another notification will be sent out when this phase begins, likely with the first successful close of a major proposal. Happy editing! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her), via:
@Gonnym I don't think there's consensus one way or the other. I haven't seen icons used very often for fare zones, though we likely have them for Central European tariff associations. Certainly they should be smaller. Mackensen(talk)12:24, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Glencoe station diagram
Hello, I noticed your deletion of the station diagram for Glencoe station today, and while I noticed some errors with the diagram and your reasoning was justified, I do not fully agree with it but was wondering if a proposition was possible.
I understand that Wikipedia is not a guide, but the intention was to show a top-down layout of the station and immediate surrounding area, similar to the photograph(s) shown on many other station pages. The diagram and others like it are not intended to provide wayfinding.
Additionally, you had a valid point in that a station with two tracks does not need such detail, but one notable caveat with this line is that it is left-hand running, and may be a notable quirk for those that visit the page.
Finally, when I looked at the most recent version of the diagram prior to deletion, I noticed some problems with what got published. There are no excuses for that and I will have to polish it up, but the main question is… considering the points I made, and if I ironed out its errors and made it collapsed by default, could I restore it to the page?
I suppose I am making a mountain out of a molehill, but I wanted to give my side of the problem and hear yours before adding it back, or conceding and not adding it back.
@Hotdog with ketchup thank you for your kind and detailed note. I'm guided by the 2020 RfC on station layouts, which was skeptical about diagrams in certain cases: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Trains/Archive: 2020#Closure of 2019 station layout RFC. I wasn't concerned about potential errors in the diagram--I don't know the area well and wouldn't have spotted them--but simply that a two-tracked station doesn't need an explanatory diagram. I agree that left-hand running is a notable quirk of the ex-CNW lines, and can and should be explained in text, but I don't know that a diagram is necessary to convey that information. Whether that takes us into trivial territory is another matter. I don't think it does, because that is unusual in the US.
... for using language like "impassioned rhetoric" here rather than language like "hysterical histrionics" which 2-3 contributors to that discussion seem to want to keep repeating to no end! Sincetely, SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:07, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally, you are invited to City Tech Library LGBTQIA edit-a-thon at the New York City College of Technology Library in Downtown Brooklyn! Join us in person on April 11th to learn about these great new materials at City Tech Library; to learn about editing Wikipedia; and to help increase representation of LGBTQIA individuals and issues online. All are welcome, new and experienced!
Interested in attending, but not a CUNY student or faculty? Please get in touch; we'll help you navigate City Tech building security. Email Jen: jennifer.hoyer18 (at) citytech.cuny.edu.
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RFA2024 update: phase I concluded, phase II begins
Hi there! Phase I of the Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review has concluded, with several impactful changes gaining community consensus and proceeding to various stages of implementation. Some proposals will be implemented in full outright; others will be discussed at phase II before being implemented; and still others will proceed on a trial basis before being brought to phase II. The following proposals have gained consensus:
This special WikiWednesday will feature a welcome session and beginning of a listening tour by the newly appointed executive director of Wikimedia NYC, the first staff member leading our local non-profit.
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Hello, I noticed that you reverted my edit on Template:Trans-Siberian Railway. Your revert was justified and I will only be going back to fix one particular row, but I will add that collapsible sections within diagrams are very finicky, and almost never line up, especially between browsers and/or devices. Both before and after my edit, the end station was about half a space off when viewing the template, and a full space in the article (using Safari on an iPhone.)
I will leave the spacing as-is, but I encourage you to look at the same diagram with a different device, as it may look completely different. It is why I avoid working with collapsible diagrams.
@Hotdog with ketchup I agree completely regarding collapsible sections. I'm not a fan of them in general and never use them with diagrams that I've started. The Trans-Siberian, admittedly, is a special case. My involvement there was limited to migrating it to the routemap style, and IIRC I had a hell of a time getting the spacing to line up as well as it does now. Cheers, Mackensen(talk)13:28, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
June 2: Hacking Sunday (+preview of June 8 Wiknic)
You are invited to join the Wikimedia NYC community for our Hacking Sunday at Prime Produce in Hell's Kitchen, Manhattan. It is intended primarily for technical contributors, though newcomers are welcome as well! The event runs for the whole day, though you are welcome to come by for as little or as long as you'd like.
A documentary filmmaker will be in attendance, working on Rabbit Hole, which aims to document Wikipedia's community to showcase how our network tackles important questions about how history is recorded. They will be in attendance to film snippets of this gathering for the documentary. It is completely optional to be a part of the film and there will be protocols in place if you wish to not be filmed. If there are any questions about the filming please reach out to the filmmaker, Meg Vatterott ([email protected]).
This is a sequel event to the 2023 Governors Island Wiknic and will feature a workshop led by AfroCrowd at the ArtCrawl Harlem house. We'll also encourage collaboration for wiki-coverage of ArtCrawl Harlem's current exhibition at Governors Island.
All are welcome, new and experienced!
Bring a picnic blanket and some potluck, as well as some sunscreen! We'll also provide sandwiches for everyone, and maybe some NYC pizza too, but we encourage you to bring your own favorite dishes to share, especially for those food cultural topics you would like to improve on Wikipedia.
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@Useddenim I think Gonnym has a point. It seems unlikely that a reader would follow such a small symbol to view the more detailed template. If by chance they do so, they're no longer in the article space and might have some difficult getting back, and the template page itself doesn't have all the article context. In paper maps, you'd indicate a inset with a bounding box and such, but that's not really feasible here. An RfC may well be called for; I don't think there's ever been a broad discussion about this pattern. Mackensen(talk)09:36, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
EMD SD9E
You may have noticed that the disruptive PROD on this article references the Australian Railroad IP. The IP address geolocates to Melbourne, one of the two Australian cities this editor frequents. This is pretty clearly that editor evading their block yet again and telling on themselves in the process. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 13:53, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This special online-only WikiWednesday will be dedicated to the Wikimedia Movement Charter referendum, and also to exploring future options of other online-centric events for our Wikimedia NYC chapter.
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Meeting info:
You are invited to join the Wikimedia NYC community for the inaugural event of the beginner-focused Wikicurious series at Civic Hall! All are welcome, and newcomers and aspiring editors are especially encouraged to attend.
Apologies for forgetting that you fix Ambiguous rail links when I turned off automated reports in my retirement tidy-up. The simplistic query throws up a few false positives. Links from portals are often in an automated "new pages of interest" section aimed at editors and will go away after a while. A few genuine but non-rail targets like Fashion line appear. Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links/Guide#Railway stations has some hints on fixing the problems; you probably knew everything in there but may be able to improve it. Thanks for continuing the good work, Certes (talk) 23:23, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.
Bring a picnic blanket and some potluck, as well as some sunscreen! We'll also provide a little something for everyone, but we encourage you to bring your own favorite dishes to share, especially for those food cultural topics you would like to improve on Wikipedia.
Has there ever been a discussion that clearly established that having RDTs in template space is acceptable? There's yet another RDT at TfD with the usual single-use argument. At some point, it's probably necessary to have WP:TG explicitly allow RDTs. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 18:18, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not aware of any actual discussion; it's just convention and the outcome of previous TfDs. RDTs as implemented cut against existing guidelines: hiding content from users, storing article content in the template namespace. Divorcing that content from the article itself creates situations where the two diverge, and also the phenomenon of RDTs that don't have associated articles. I don't know, I'm coming around to the idea that maybe RDTs should move back into their articles. What are the arguments against? Mackensen(talk)18:41, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The main thing is editability - it's much easier to edit (and debug) the RDT on a separate page than when surrounded by the rest of the wikitext, and vastly easier to edit an article without dozens of lines of code that's very different from any other kind of wikitext. It also decreases the chance that a careless search-and-replace or Visual Editor bug messes up the RDT. RDTs (even those not as templates) don't tend to be edited much by newer editors simply because of their complex nature, so I doubt it actually discourages anyone who would otherwise make constructive edits to RDTs. I consider it akin to hosting images (even those highly unlikely to be used anywhere except a single article) on Commons, with the information and image file stored separately from any articles it's used in.
I don't know if it's any less likely for RDTs to diverge if they're directly in the article. It's not going to be any less tricky for newer editors to figure out the RDT code if it's in the article, while experienced editors tend to be aware that RDTs need updated.
At this point, there is also an argument simply from inertia: what tangible benefit would it make to subst all 6,000+ RDTs? Aside from the attribution issues you brought up, there doesn't seem to be any major benefit to editors or readers that would justify the work. Compare to conversion to routemap which greater improved RDT display, or to adjacent stations which greatly simplified the backend. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 19:40, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Members' Meeting is similar to other WikiWednesday meetups, except that its primary function is to elect a new Board of Directors. We will elect three board seats, half of the elected seats on the board. After being elected, those elected can potentially appoint more seats.
We will also focus on the Wikimedia NYC Strategic Plan, our Financial Report, and Annual and Monthly event teams for the coming year.
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You are invited to join the Wikimedia NYC community for the "Editing to the Beat" event of the beginner-focused Wikicurious series at Lehman College. This is the second event of the series, following the inaugural event at Civic Hall in July. Led by a 9-person live band demonstrating Caribbean and Latin musical genres, we'll engage with efforts such as WikiProject Latin Music, and will encourage editing on both English and Spanish Wikipedia. All are welcome, and newcomers and aspiring editors are especially encouraged to attend. Registration via Eventbrite is required for building entry, and is also encouraged on the event page on Meta.
The Wikicurious series is supported by Craig Newmark Philanthropies. Wikimedia NYC is an official affiliate and supported by the Wikimedia Foundation. Also supporting this event are Equis, The Celia Cruz Foundation, and the International Museum of Salsa. In association with WikiCari and AfroCrowd.
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Meeting info:
Date: Saturday, September 21, 2024
Time: 1:00–7:00 p.m.
Location:Lehman College (CUNY) 250 Bedford Park Blvd W, Bronx, NY
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Given your experience on Wikipedia and the areas around it, I'd like to hear you out, because I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here and I must be missing something. If you or I were to leave someone a message in good faith, and they were to reply that you suffer from delusion, you're mindless, you're an inexperienced, overconfident, careless editor, you're turning articles to shit, and you're incompetent (among other things), surely letting that go on is a liability for the project? In my mind, if it chases away a single potentially productive editor, failing to address it makes us just as responsible for losing the thousands of contributions that productive editor would have otherwise made. And I think it would be naive to say that tolerance of a toxic environment has only chased away one potential editor. For what it's worth, I agree with your stance on civility restrictions; I intended it as a WP:ROPE for him and a compromise for those hesitant about indeffs. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:32, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Thebiguglyalien No, you're not taking crazy pills. It's hard problem and there aren't good solutions. I agree with all you say about the problems of toxicity and editor retention and I've made that point myself in the past. There were a few things about this situation in particular that guided my response:
Keystone18 isn't a new editor. They have ~120K edits since 2018. They and EEng have interacted before. This isn't a case of a senior editor being over-the-top rude to a new editor.
It's arguable that it was in good faith. The two have been involved in some back-and-forth on articles, and one comes to the other's talk page to explain to them how they ought to edit. That does not justify EEng's tone.
The discussion on EEng's talk page included multiple editors who thought that Keystone18 was the last person to be lecturing EEng about how to edit. This was reinforced on the ANI discussion, with at least one other uninvolved editor bringing up Keystone18's use of edit summaries.
The discussion on EEng's talk page hadn't broken down to the point that admin intervention was useful. As I said, I don't think civility restrictions work. An interaction ban would have felt premature, especially since neither party was asking for one.
Enforcing civility shouldn't depend on which editor is "right" on the merits, but if often does and would in this case. I wish I had a useful suggestion because I agree that the problem you've identified exists and we as a project aren't doing a good job addressing it. Mackensen(talk)02:04, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More than anything else, competence consists in knowing one's own limitations. Some editors have extensive skills, others limited, but they're all equally competent so long as each recognizes in what areas he or she lacks skill, and steers clear of those areas. Keystone, despite the efforts of many editors, stubbornly refuses to restrict themself to doing things they have the skills to do, and they are therefore incompetent. The result is the inevitable result when a self-confident incompetent is left unchecked: they destroy stuff.Your sweetness-and-light talk of losing the thousands of contributions that productive editor would have otherwise made is belied by the facts. I can't speak for what Keystone does to articles off my watchlist, but of articles on my watchlist, there's not a single one that they touched that they didn't turn into complete, unreadable crap strewn with gibberish "sentences", reversals of meaning in the course of pointless "copyediting", and utterly screwed-up formatting. For the sake of the articles themselves, instead of simply mass-reverting I went through every one of Keystone's edits looking for anything that might be useful; out of 500+ edits by Keystone, I found maybe five that were helpful, mostly addition of links. Everything else they did was, literally, at best useless and usually destructive. So save the tears. EEng14:43, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Realized in the shower that I forgot this point ...) And, Mackensen, you're mistaken that Keystone and I have been involved in some back-and-forth on articles. For ten days Keystone completely ignored all attempts at communication (including reversion edit summaries, talk-page messages, and pings) and then had the temerity to suddenly appear on my talk page to lecture me with delusional (yes, that's the word, given that other editors had several times tried to set him straight) ideas such as that images must all be on the right, and all the same size, and that hidden comments aren't allowed, and then topped it off by telling me to Open yourself to collaboration with other editors, and consider their input. So, no "back and forth", just one editor wandering around the landscape fucking things up and spouting hypocritical platitudes, while others with better things to do clean up his messes. EEng19:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't meaning to imply that Keystone18 had been responsive; I know that they weren't. My point was simply that Keystone18 wasn't a well-meaning uninvolved editor swinging by to offer disinterested advice. I leave open the question of what kind of reception such a hypothetical editor might expect. Mackensen(talk)19:37, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I understand. And now we know Mr. alien understands too. I'm sick and tired of them sticking their bigugly defender-of-the-indefensible nose into things that don't concern them. "I intended it as a WP:ROPE for him" indeed -- that'll be the day. See [2]. Meanwhile, the loose cannon at the root of all this has a super-bad case of ANI flu [3]. There's someone who needs some goddam rope. EEng04:59, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ThylacineHunter no, that's deliberate. In both cases they'd be ambiguous with the physical railway line of the same name. This discussion is better had at the move discussion itself, where I explained my rationale. Mackensen(talk)03:46, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Well, one thing happened is that a user substantially rewrote the history section about a decade ago, and that in turn had to be entirely removed (by me) as a massive copyright violation in 2015: Talk:New_York,_Susquehanna_and_Western_Railway#Copyright_problem_removed. That's never healthy for an article.
I find it helpful to nail down the corporate history and be clear about which company built what, and when. The ICC valuation reports are invaluable (see Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains/ICC valuations/New York, Susquehanna and Western Railroad) for pre-1930 history, which captures most construction and subsequent changes pre-abandonment. You can still keep everything in one article, but it's good to identify precursors. A separate section identifying the main line and branches can be usefully separated out from the history section. If there's a good modern history that can guide structure, but as you say you don't want to follow it too closely. Mohowski's book published by JHU seems like a good candidate, though I haven't read it.
Organization is tough. One-sentence paragraphs aren't great; ten-sentence paragraphs aren't great either. I did a rewrite on Chicago and Tomah Railroad this May that I'm pretty happy with. Admittedly the topic is much narrower in scope. The longest paragraph is about 130 words; if the History section had a fourth paragraph I would have considered sub-headings. Mackensen(talk)00:07, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for that. I hadn’t actually looked at the Susquehanna talk page, so I should probably give it a full read to find out what not to do. I am primarily using a Morning Sun Books source by Paul Tupaczewski, but I am trying to find other sources from Newspapers.com as well, and for when I reach the Delaware Otsego section, I also have some magazine articles to use.
I am normally used to rewriting pages about individual steam locomotives, so fleshing out company history is sort of new territory for me. I have added some sourced information to company pages before, like the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy, but I think the Susquehanna page is my first time fixing the majority of a company page, if you get what I’m saying. Someone who likes train writing (talk) 02:47, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(talk page stalker) That book looks somewhat helpful, but it also seems more focused on photography. There's a book out there from 2003 [4] which seems more focused on the railroad's history and is likely the most comprehensive source out there. In my research on various railroads, I've found a lot of useful sources on Google books, such as old reports by state railroad commissions or old trade publications (examples [5], [6], [7]). Google books will also have newspaper articles such as [8].
The most comprehensive articles I've written on railroads are my FAs, particularly Wood River Branch Railroad and Providence and Worcester Railroad. Hopefully those give you an idea of the sources out there, a mix of books, magazine articles, and newspaper archives primarily. Finding books dedicated to the subject has been key for me in getting articles fully fleshed out, you can see how heavily Wood River Branch Railroad relies on a book published on its history, and a similar story at Narragansett Pier Railroad which unfortunately was unsuccessful at FAC this year. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 21:24, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have been thinking about getting a physical copy of Robert Mohowski’s book, but it is pretty expensive, so I might wait until my next paycheck comes in. And yes, Tupaczewski’s book does mostly focus on photography, but a lot of its pages contain information that I couldn’t find anywhere else. I have also already ordered a copy of that 1991 book by Ed Crist and John Krause. Plus, there’s the Susquehanna Reflector magazine run by the Susquehanna Technical and Historical Society, which can be accessed for free here, and I think that’s fair play.
@Mackensen Hello again. I have an update about that NYS&W page; I’ve completely expanded a significant portion the history section, with a lot of it being sourced by newspaper and book sources. I haven’t started working on the Delaware Otsego section yet, but before I do, would you like to look it over and tell me what you think of what I’ve done so far? Someone who likes train writing (talk) 01:06, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Someone who likes train writing first thing I'd suggest is citation standardization and cleanup; there are multiple styles in use right now. My personal preference is {{sfnp}}, which is one of those present. I find it easier to work with since you can dispense with the ref tags when referencing books. Do you have a preference? Mackensen(talk)02:06, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mackensen Everytime I reference a book or a magazine in a page, I always use the {{harvp}} template. Any other templates used to reference a book in that page may have already been there when I started fixing it. I never actually thought there has been more than one way of doing this. Someone who likes train writing (talk) 03:25, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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I just created an article today on the incentive per diem boxcar craze that I thought might be of interest to you. Right now it pretty heavily relies on one source. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 22:30, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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@Pi.1415926535 I've read this three times and I'm not actually sure what's going on. Is it just as simple as the Eagle running with additional cars on the days it connects with the Sunset Limited? Mackensen(talk)12:14, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Your two edits that said you reverted mine on the Coaster train service page are very misunderstanding. The edit that I made is to change "service" to "line" since only one line is used in the system. The reason why I had to do this is so that people can know that it operates on one line only. For one edit, you said that it is not the distinction being made on the page. For the other edit, you said to look at WP:BRD and discuss on the article's talk page. These edits are very misunderstanding to me. Please add additional information of why my two edits were reverted. Hikingboii (talk) 17:14, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hikingboii in this context, a line means physical infrastructure, while a service uses that physical infrastructure. Transit operators often use line when talking about a service, which can be confusing. Wikipedia does not draw the distinction the way you suggest; calling a service a line when it is the only service operated by within that system. Mackensen(talk)17:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So I tried editing the Caltrain article and changed "line" to "service" because you said that using "line" may be confusing. I tried editing it to commuter rail "service", but it turns out it got reverted by some user named Coolcaesar. See the revision history to look at the reverted edit and see what you can do about it. Hikingboii (talk) 19:12, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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