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User talk:KJP1
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- Worldbruce (talk) 15:01, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2018-07-08T15:01:00.000Z","author":"Worldbruce","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Worldbruce-2018-07-08T15:01:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->
Future use__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"headingLevel":2,"name":"h-","type":"heading","level":0,"id":"h-Future_use","replies":[]}}-->
Hi KJP1. I've noticed that you've been reviewing DragonofBatley's edits recently. I have had long-standing concerns about his editing, but have found him difficult to engage with either due to WP:Competence issues or his sometimes highly combative tone. I had a run in a while ago and have intention to engage with him again. IMO his is a good example of the sort of low-level, seemingly good-faith editing which can be highly disruptive when there are competency issues - however, it's often the hardest to deal with on WP mostly because it flies under most editor's radars. However, I've discovered this, which makes me question whether this is all well-meaning: [3]. Could well be trolling, but it's bizarre if so. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 22:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC).[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250105220000","author":"Noswall59","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Noswall59-20250105220000-Dragon","replies":["c-KJP1-20250106064800-Noswall59-20250105220000"]}}-->
- Noswall59 - Yes, I also noticed that, and was equally puzzled by it. For me, it doesn't have the feel of trolling, but I could well be wrong. Whatever the motivation, it is certainly problematic editing. They are obsessively creating masses of, largely non-notable, "place" articles, and sourcing them apparently at random. Except they aren't random, there is often some linked word, suggesting they are running an internet search and just slapping in whatever turns up without actually reading it. I've asked them - again - for an explanation. Whether I get one... KJP1 (talk) 06:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250106064800","author":"KJP1","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-KJP1-20250106064800-Noswall59-20250105220000","replies":["c-Noswall59-20250106171600-KJP1-20250106064800"]}}-->
- Yes, I agree with your diagnosis about the editing. I don't think the editing itself is done in bad faith -- I do think Dragon is trying to help; this is just a textbook case of WP:CIR to me. However, I think the revision to their user page which I linked above is, above all, especially concerning. In particular, Dragon's block log is clean, yet they said "I've been hiding for so long I was banned a few times. Still got through the radar for 4 years unnoticed". Are they admitting to evading a ban/block through sock-puppetry? A strange move if so. I'm glad that this is all getting some scrutiny now. Thanks for your diligence. All the best, -- Noswall59 (talk) 17:16, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250106171600","author":"Noswall59","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Noswall59-20250106171600-KJP1-20250106064800","replies":["c-Tryptofish-20250107001500-Noswall59-20250106171600"]}}-->
- It does raise concerns about ban evasion to me. If someone is doing a WP:CLEANSTART, that post would be the wrong way to go about it. If there are also WP:CIR concerns, this may be something that should go to WP:ANI or WP:SPI. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250107001500","author":"Tryptofish","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Tryptofish-20250107001500-Noswall59-20250106171600","replies":["c-KJP1-20250107083200-Tryptofish-20250107001500"]}}-->
- You both may well be right. I'd wanted to deal, at least with the source integrity issue, without going to ANI. My hope was that they'd agree to voluntarily put new articles through the AfC process. But despite my asking them not to, they have gone ahead and created another article (over a re-direct) which has exactly the same source integrity problems. Then there is the separate, but related, issue of Notability. And then there's their weird Talkpage message. Perhaps I should just take it all to ANI and let others have a look/make a call on next steps. KJP1 (talk) 08:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250107083200","author":"KJP1","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-KJP1-20250107083200-Tryptofish-20250107001500","replies":["c-Tryptofish-20250107221400-KJP1-20250107083200"]}}-->
- I haven't looked into it, beyond the discussion here. If you do decide to follow-up, please feel free to ping me, and I'll see if I can help. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250107221400","author":"Tryptofish","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Tryptofish-20250107221400-KJP1-20250107083200","replies":["c-KJP1-20250108104300-Tryptofish-20250107221400"]}}-->
- Appreciated. Not sure how it's going to pan out. They're currently angry and are lashing about. Hopefully, they'll calm down and think rationally. KJP1 (talk) 10:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250108104300","author":"KJP1","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-KJP1-20250108104300-Tryptofish-20250107221400","replies":["c-DragonofBatley-20250112142700-KJP1-20250108104300"]}}-->
- Just to be clear ive not taken my bat and gone home. I went off to cool down. And there is no sockpuppetry involved. It was a joke. I role play. Maybe it was not an appropriate thing but i do. Ive had one user change name and that is it. Now i am calm. Please do tell me what to improve? And i will take @KJP1suggestion for AfC since I did so with Lawley Bank and will do with future articles or i could sandbox create it and ask for input? DragonofBatley (talk) 14:27, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250112142700","author":"DragonofBatley","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-DragonofBatley-20250112142700-KJP1-20250108104300","replies":[]}}-->
Tryptofish / SchroCat / Noswall59 - While the immediate problem may have diminished, as Dragon appears to have taken their bat home, I remain worried by the 427 articles they've created. And, of course, there is the possibility that they will restart their activities at a time of their choosing. I've been doing some spot checking and, almost, every one I look at has the same issues. Examples are, Croyland and Swanspool - 2 tags; Hatton Park - 1 tag; Belmont, Northwich - 8 tags, out of 9 cites in total! Do you think I should still take this to ANI, to guard against recurrence? And is there somewhere similar to Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations where editors can work through the articles already created to check for issues. As I know, that can be a rather dull task! But I fear it's very likely many of these articles will have Failed Verification issues. Any advice appreciated. KJP1 (talk) 15:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250111151700","author":"KJP1","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-KJP1-20250111151700-Dragon","replies":["c-SchroCat-20250111155400-KJP1-20250111151700","c-Martinevans123-20250111160300-KJP1-20250111151700","c-Cremastra-20250113212100-KJP1-20250111151700"]}}-->
- I don't know of any similar investigation pathway, which is a shame, as its exactly what is needed here. I've dropped a few of his pages back to draft as they fail even the most basic tests, and it wouldn't surprise me if nearly all of them are problematic in one way or another. Also pinging PamD, whose name I have seen on several of these articles, tagging and pointing out the multiple errors. - SchroCat (talk) 15:54, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250111155400","author":"SchroCat","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-SchroCat-20250111155400-KJP1-20250111151700","replies":["c-KJP1-20250111155800-SchroCat-20250111155400"]}}-->
- Many thanks. Yes, it does need something like CCI. And thanks for pinging PamD. I'd also be grateful for her advice on Notability of wards/suburbs. I've pushed a couple of these to AfD as the sourcing was so weak, and I don't think wards and suburbs are inherently notable, but Pam will likely know for sure. KJP1 (talk) 15:58, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250111155800","author":"KJP1","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-KJP1-20250111155800-SchroCat-20250111155400","replies":[]}}-->
- (talk page watcher) Eh what, just "a rather dull task"? Surely not! Martinevans123 (talk) 16:03, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250111160300","author":"Martinevans123","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Martinevans123-20250111160300-KJP1-20250111151700","replies":["c-KJP1-20250111160800-Martinevans123-20250111160300"]}}-->
- Sorry about that! I withdraw the remark. And place on record that it was the absolute highpoint of my time here, and my proudest achievement. KJP1 (talk) 16:08, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250111160800","author":"KJP1","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-KJP1-20250111160800-Martinevans123-20250111160300","replies":[]}}-->
- I was also thinking of a CCI-like failed verification project. Although CCI wouldn't be the answer... perhaps a dedicated one-off sub-page of WP:WPRE would be best.
- However, I'm against taking this to ANI just yet. Due to the user's lack of responsiveness, I was previously in favour of such an action, but DragonofBatley seems to be listening and accepting feedback. I don't think it's appropriate to drag someone to ANI while also talking with them on their talk page. Give him a chance to fix up his mistakes: he is, as PamD says, an enthusiastic editor. I think at this point the best course of action is some careful guidance/mentoring, encouragement towards the AfC process, and some monitoring of edits, but not a loud ANI discussion or blocks or sanctions yet.
- For these reasons, KJP1, I'm strongly urging you to at least wait to raise this at ANI. At the bare minimum, see how this discussion plays out and we can look at his subsequent writing efforts.
- Thanks, Cremastra (u — c) 21:21, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250113212100","author":"Cremastra","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Cremastra-20250113212100-KJP1-20250111151700","replies":["c-Tryptofish-20250113212700-Cremastra-20250113212100"],"displayName":"u"}}-->
- Please, no, it's fine to go ahead tomorrow. I checked the linked discussion, and I don't see any reason to delay any further. I realize it can't be easy for KJP1 to keep getting conflicting input about this, but going back and forth any longer is just postponing the inevitable. Better to rip the bandage off, and take it where more people can look at the evidence and decide for themselves. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250113212700","author":"Tryptofish","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Tryptofish-20250113212700-Cremastra-20250113212100","replies":["c-DragonofBatley-20250113230900-Tryptofish-20250113212700"]}}-->
- The bandage has been ripped off. I actually agreed to change but it is at least from your reply too little too late to fix things. By the way not instigating anything. I'm responding based on the response and terms used. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250113230900","author":"DragonofBatley","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-DragonofBatley-20250113230900-Tryptofish-20250113212700","replies":[]}}-->
Hallo, as I've been pinged to this discussion. Dragon is, I think, the only editor who has dragged me to ANI - see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1131#PamD and I'm feeling intentionally stalked. It's a bit of a wall of text. Near the end he states that he is "on the spectrum" (as a reason for objecting to his username being abbreviated ... though somewhere else, later, he said he was happy to be DoB or Dragon). He was previously editing as RailwayJG.
He has been an enthusiastic editor, and I do tend to look at his contributions list because he edits almost entirely about places in England, where I live, and I know from experience that I am likely to be able to contribute some helpful cleanup or other improvements to his article creations or major edits (fixing incomplete sentences, unlinking years or centuries, using the {{NHLE}} template, adding churches to their relevant dab pages, etc). He sometimes words things poorly, and has done some horribly careless edits over the years, such as the geographical muddle here where he left a place being "east of Portsmouth and west of Southampton".
He seems keen lately to create articles about subsections of towns, where these are perhaps electoral wards, sometimes just housing estates / business parks / vague locations, in cases where the reader would usually be better served by a single article covering the town (with incoming redirects, of course). (Notability of wards is a topic which gets raised at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography or elsewhere from time to time but with no real consensus. Personally I think wards are not notable as such, even if census info is available for them, although lists of wards, with incoming redirects/dab page entries, might be useful for some places.) An example of fragmentation is Market Place (Wragby), where I think the reader would be better served if it was merged into Wragby. There are articles for many probably-non-notable wards of Lincoln, Telford and other places.
I have a feeling that the eccentric sourcing is a fairly recent phenomenon, where any mention of a place in any text found in Google books is enough to justify adding it as a ref, even if the text "Skegness is a haven, village, ..." is then taken as a source for Haven Village. A sad thing is that sometimes there's actually a source there which does have some interesting information about the place, but it's ignored and the source is just used a evidence of the existence of the place. The article St Peter and St Paul Church, Caistor, as he left it, cited an 1840 book apparently to support the NHLE listing, while the book actually included a fascinating story, supported by other sources, about "The Gad Whip", which I then added.
He may or may not be making a final departure. He is obviously someone who has spent a lot of their time editing Wikipedia, mostly about British settlements and railways, and almost entirely editing in good faith (there was the one drunken attempt to add himself as a notable resident of Batley...) and would miss the activity hugely if he did stop completely. I think the care he gives his editing has improved since (OK, four years ago) he left an article in this state - notice the map, and the diocese in the infobox! (It was later deleted at AfD). It's just a pity that some of what he has produced has been substandardly-sourced, or carelessly-created, or of doubtful notability. PamD 18:58, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250111185800","author":"PamD","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-PamD-20250111185800-Dragon","replies":["c-KJP1-20250111220700-PamD-20250111185800"],"displayName":"Pam"}}-->
- Pam - I appreciate the full response. And I think you are a more tolerant editor than I manage to be! Unless there are strong views to the contrary, I'm going to let this one lie for now. But looking through the 2023 case, I am struck at how similar the issues we're dealing with are to those of two years ago. I don't always agree with David Gerrard, but his response to DragonofBatley then does sum it up very well:
"It looks very much like...a competence issue on your part. I can appreciate that you don't like having your repeated and persistent insertion of errors being called out, but the root cause is your repeated and persistent insertion of errors" . I have a gut feeling we shall have to revisit this at some point. KJP1 (talk) 22:07, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250111220700","author":"KJP1","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-KJP1-20250111220700-PamD-20250111185800","replies":["c-Tryptofish-20250112015000-KJP1-20250111220700"]}}-->
- KJP1, I'm a bit late responding to your ping, but I've tried to get caught up with what people are saying here. Pam explained the name change, which looks to me like that answers the "other accounts" issue to my satisfaction. As for the competence issues, I'm inclined to come down on the side of "yes, this should go to ANI", but I'm also swamped with other things, and I don't edit in those areas, so it's not my problem if the problems continue. Reporting to CCI sounds like a needed action, but that's something where there are tremendous backlogs, so just don't expect anything fast. If you, Pam, and other editors are content to risk letting the problems continue a bit longer, that's OK with me, but it's not the decision I would likely make if they were editing in my topic areas. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:50, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250112015000","author":"Tryptofish","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Tryptofish-20250112015000-KJP1-20250111220700","replies":[]}}-->
KJP1: thanks for the tag. And thanks also Pam for an insightful overview of Dragon's editing history. Sorry for the length -- I did not intend this to be such a long reply but I think it's helpful nonetheless as I evidence a fair few points; I've collapsed my full response as I don't want a wall of text to disrupt your talk page. TLDR: I think there are three core issues here: (1) adherence to guidelines and policies relating to article creation and content; (2) civility; and (3) possible sock-puppetry. I think this should go to ANI, but I do not know what a good outcome looks like; at the very least, extra eyes on this and the 420+ creations is a good thing (and that statistic is pretty scary to me). Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 11:46, 12 January 2025 (UTC).[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250112114600","author":"Noswall59","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Noswall59-20250112114600-Dragon","replies":[]}}-->
Noswall - thanks. The comments are exceptionally helpful, and no need at all to apologise for the length. To wrap this discussion up, there is a very clear consensus, here and on User:DragonofBatley's Talkpage, that this should go to ANI. As the one who raised it, I shall do that tomorrow. KJP1 (talk) 18:13, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250113181300","author":"KJP1","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-KJP1-20250113181300-Dragon","replies":["c-DragonofBatley-20250113224700-KJP1-20250113181300"]}}-->
- No need to. I made the referall now. You and the others have all been pinged accordingly. If I cannot resolve it without ANI. I'll go there like I have now to resolve this. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:47, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250113224700","author":"DragonofBatley","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-DragonofBatley-20250113224700-KJP1-20250113181300","replies":[]}}-->
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On (1), I have encountered Dragon's edits many times over the last few years as I also edit articles about UK places, particularly in Lincolnshire. IMO, there are core competency issues here -- even the way that Dragon responds on talk pages leads me to question his ability to write cogently and clearly, but the proof is in the pudding and we've seen numerous reported issues around verifiability, notability and quality be raised in the last few days. He also frequently cites policies but has been called out before for having clearly not read or understood them (e.g., [4]). 420+ creations is scary in light of all that. But also, just look at the sheer volume of content-related issues that have been brought to his talk page over the years, many by Pam in a diligent and astonishingly patient effort to educate him. This is a textbook case of WP:CIR, as harsh as I think that policy sounds; we are here to make an encyclopedia and that requires more than good intention. Unfortunately, competency issues often fly under the radar, especially when the editors concerned are engaged in good-faith editing on very niche topics, like minor suburban localities, disused railway stations and census wards. Most editors won't encounter these outputs, and when they do they may not notice the problems -- often seeing an article that appears well-cited and correct but so technical and niche that they can't judge it's erroneous, non-notable or unverified. I have certainly improved my own editing over the decade or so I've been here, and I've done so by listening, watching what others do well, and challenging myself to improve. I think we all want Dragon to improve, but I question whether he has the intention or the capacity given the help he's received to date, his attitude to criticism, and these persistent issues.
This leads on to civility. He can be friendly and helpful, but he can also be challenging to engage with, especially when challenged himself. He tends to lash out, accuse other editors of ganging up on him, and can flippantly say things (like "joke" about evading bans when under heavy scrutiny) which seem to be in very poor judgement and possibly constitute trolling. He can go on lengthy tirades to these ends. He has been called out for posting content on his userpage which incites violence [5], and has also included expletive content there [6]. My own brief run in with him (at 1, 2) over some edits to Skegness left a pretty sour taste in my mouth and I made a conscious choice to avoid him again. That was a long time ago, but the responses we've seen of late suggest that not much has changed. Pam points out that Dragon alleges he has an autistic spectrum disorder, so I am mindful of this; but, in my view, that cannot be justification for permitting incivility and disruption. We are a volunteer organisation and we need people to work with each other and edit constructively; for legitimate reasons not everyone can do that and that's a shame.
Finally, (3). I've outlined my concerns about sockpuppetry above. I don't think the RailwayJG alias is enough to make me feel comfortable that he was referring to that account name change in his comments, because I can't see anything in RailwayJG's block log either -- he's referred several times to having been banned, but recently claimed that this was a joke or sarcasm. I cannot fathom why someone would out themselves so brazenly if true, but I also cannot fathom why someone would "joke" about this when under so much heat. Something's not right. Most of us edit anonymously so we have to trust that we're doing so in good faith otherwise the system breaks down. I'm struggling to trust here. In sum, I think this does need to go to ANI. Dragon's retirement could be permanent, but in my experience these things seldom are - and if this behaviour resumes in a few months when the heat's off, the problem could go unaddressed again. It's hard to see what a good outcome looks like here -- an admonishment, a topic ban from new creations, a full block? I like KJP1's suggestion of mandatory AFC but he's shown unwillingness to engage so something more formal may be needed. None of this deals with potential pre-existing problems in those 400+ articles; more eyes may at least help work through the backlog.
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Thank you for improving the Welsh composer, now fit for article space! - Liebster Immanuel, Herzog der Frommen, BWV 123, my story today 300 years after the first performance, is up for GAN. Dada Masilo will be my story tomorrow. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250106221400","author":"Gerda Arendt","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Gerda_Arendt-20250106221400-January_music","replies":[]}}-->
My story today is about a composer who influenced music history also by writing.--Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250108100400","author":"Gerda Arendt","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Gerda_Arendt-20250108100400-January_music","replies":[]}}-->
... and today, pictured on the Main page, Tosca, in memory of her first appearance on stage OTD in 1900, and of principal author Brian Boulton. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250114185100","author":"Gerda Arendt","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Gerda_Arendt-20250114185100-January_music","replies":[]}}-->
 There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Me (DragonofBatley). Thank you. Tarlby (t) (c) 22:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250113225800","author":"Tarlby","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tarlby-20250113225800-Notice_of_Administrators'_noticeboard\/Incidents_discussion","replies":[]}}-->
I've spent quite a while adding images and Commons categories to the lists. Something that would be nice is if we were able to get an image of every Grade I listed building but I don't think that's that much of a practical project given that I think there are several hundred Grade I listed buildings with no images scattered across the country. Anyway thankyou for you're work with listed buildings and cleaning up DragonofBatley's work. I might see if I can help out there though something I have pointed out to them is WP:SUBCAT but they have still been doing it where they but a settlement article in both a parish category and the district category the parish is in. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20250118232500","author":"Crouch, Swale","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Crouch,_Swale-20250118232500-Listed_buildings_images","replies":[]}}-->
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