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Non-neutral image

Please replace the East Turkestan flag to represent Uyghur people. The use of the flag to represent the Uyghurs is non-neutral and fails WP:NPOV, given that it symbolises Uyghur separatism. Wikipedia should take no position on this, and such outright association is inappropriate. I would suggest possibly a map or this file File:Uyghurche.png, or if no suitable image can be found, then don't use any image. Hzh (talk) 10:18, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The flag is also referred to as the "Uighur flag" by reliable sources. It seems reasonable to use and consistent with other sorts of similar boxes, such as Template:Rohingya people, which is the template I based this off of. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 00:09, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, it does not seem reasonable. There is no history of independence movement with the Rohinyas and it is not associated with any political ideology, which the Turkestan flag clearly is. It also does not have any official status within China, unlike for example, the Scottish flag in the UK. The use of such flag is therefore highly politically-charged. Trying to associate people with a specific ideology (in this case separatism) when such ideology is highly contentious in China is non-neutral and wrong. It amounts to stating that Wikipedia supports the independence movement of the Uyghurs, which should not be done. Using the script for the people is also used in Template:Hazara people, so it is not unusual. There are others that use map and other images, so there is no standard way of doing this, and nothing to be consistent with, especially when there is a likelihood of violation of the policy of WP:NPOV. Hzh (talk) 07:48, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Given the contentious nature of the flag and the possibility of violating NPOV, I think there is a necessity that a consensus be obtained before such a flag can be used to represent the people in a template. If you want to use it, I suggest you start a RfC. Hzh (talk) 08:04, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that the flag violates NPOV, nor that the presence of an independence movement itself disqualisfies the flag's use (see Template:Palestinians for the use of a flag in a geopolitically controversial area). Considering that it's a flag that is used by the people itself, which is reflected in reliable sources, so I don't see anything wrong with using it. I'll start an RfC below. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 05:21, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, per WP:BRD, I don't see a reason here that the flag should remain out. After the template was created, at least one other editor noticed the page, made an edit to the page, and left the flag, which was on the template for ten days before you boldly removed it. I have reverted your bold edit that replaced the flag with another image; the template should stay with the flag there until the discussion is concluded below. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 06:32, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RfC — Uyghur flag

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is no consensus to include the flag, leaning against. Because of the flag's strong associations with East Turkistan independence movement, some editors are concerned that its lack of official status and use to represent Uyghurs generally may violate WP:NPOV or imply that Wikipedia supports East Turkistan independence. On the other hand, some editors believe that China's ban on the flag should not have any impact on whether Wikipedia should use it. Absent a consensus to include it, the flag should not be used in the template. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 06:14, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is the use of the Uyghur flag, which is the historical Flag of East Turkistan, appropriate for inclusion atop the template? — Mikehawk10 (talk) 06:20, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Survey: RfC — Uyghur flag

~~No.~~ Yes. Multiple reliable news outlets directly describe the flag, which is that of the short-lived First East Turkistan Republic, as the Uyghur (or Uighur) flag (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 etc.). In a template on an ethnic group (such as Template:Palestinians, Template:Rohingya people, Template:African_American_topics_sidebar) it is seemingly typical to use a flag or some variation thereof to represent the group. Since the flag is the flag of the Uyghur people, as demonstrated by multiple reliable sources, it would seem appropriate for it to be used in the sidebar and in line with policies requiring neutrality. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 06:20, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think you meant to vote "yes". Hzh (talk) 06:46, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Updated, thank you. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 07:14, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No. As the website for the East Turkestan independence movement [1] explains, the flag is a symbol of East Turkestan independence, and banned by China. It cannot be used by Uyghurs in China and it is therefor only used by a comparatively small number of Uyghurs outside of China. It denotes separatism for the Uyghurs, and however much people might want to sympathise with the Uyghurs in their current predicament and use the flag as a direct challenge to China, to do so would be contentious and violate WP:NPOV, an important Wikipedia policy. As noted in a discussion above, there if no standard way of using image for ethnic group, and using the script for the Uyghurs File:Uyghurche.png for the template may be more neutral and less contentious. Hzh (talk) 08:13, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- If it's the flag of the Uyghur people, then it seems appropriate to use. On a second note, we don't (and shouldn't) remove the Palestinian flag from Template:Palestinians just because it's a politically touchy subject with respect to Israel; wide use by the diaspora seems to be an indicator that the flag is acceptable for inclusion on a template about a particular people. Why would it be different here? — Mikehawk10 (talk) 08:47, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is not the flag of the Uyghur people, it was the flag of the Republic of East Turkistan that briefly existed in 1933-34 and 1944-46, and it is currently used only by Uyghurs outside of China who wanted independence for the Uyghurs. As for the flag of Palestine, it was once banned by Israel, but it no longer is, and the state of Palestine is also officially recognised by the UN and many other countries, so there is no controversy on that. Not comparable in any way to the East Turkestan flag. Hzh (talk) 09:01, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone back and forth on this in my head for a few minutes, and I've landed fully on the fence. On the one hand, it doesn't sit right with me to use an activist symbol to represent an ethnic group, and the flag appears to at the very least have activist connotations. Using the script image seems neutral and appropriate enough. On the other hand, the flag appears to have those connotations largely because it's been actively suppressed in Xinjiang, and as a project that seeks to document cultural knowledge I think we ought to be extraordinarily sensitive to anything that could contribute to the cultural erasure of a group currently being targeted with a cultural genocide. Saying "okay, China's succeeded in forcefully preventing this from being a Uyghur symbol against the will of the Uyghurs, so we should do the same" seems very wrong, but on the other hand there's a WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS rebuttal. I could be persuaded one way or the other if presented with compelling evidence that the flag is or is not specifically an activist symbol rather than a general ethnic symbol, but until then I can't manage to decide about this. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 04:46, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No. I sympathize with the impulse to use the flag, because it's nice to use widely-recognized symbols in a template like this, but the reality is that if we use the flag it will inevitably be interpreted as Wikipedia taking a side on the issue of Xinjiang independence. To quote WP:NPOV: A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject[...] Do not editorialize. When editorial bias towards one particular point of view can be detected the article needs to be fixed. I do not see how including the flag in this template can be consistent with that policy. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 16:33, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion: RfC — Uyghur flag

Mikehawk10 Quick question: I read through the first couple of sources you've linked looking for discussion of the flag, but didn't find it - they just refer it in passing as 'the Uyghur flag'. Do any of those sources discuss the flag, its history and its current usage in any depth? Thanks GirthSummit _(blether) 07:41, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is some explanation in the East Turkestan Independence movement website on the use of the flag - [2]. Its use is banned in China. Hzh (talk) 08:20, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)@Girth Summit: There really isn't much I can find, though there is a journal article that describes its history in the context of Youtube videos and Uyghur nationalism. The flag is referred to in the journal article as the "unofficial Uyghur flag" and it provides a decent bit on the symbolism of the flag. Diaspora groups, such as the World Uyghur Congress and the Uyghur American Association also appear to use the flag both in their logos and at events they host. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 08:28, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So, if I'm reading this correctly, the flag is that of an Uyghur nationalist independence movement, representing East Turkistan, and it has been adopted by other campaigning groups. I don't think its being banned in China is relevant, but I also don't think we should be taking a using a symbol to represent a people if only particular campaigning groups are using it. Do any independent groups use it to represent Uyghurs as a people? GirthSummit _(blether) 09:17, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Girth Summit: To respond briefly, the World Uyghur Congress (WUC), which is the most prominent Uyghur organization around the world, uses the flag. As a 2006 report from China Brief notes, the WUC is now the outstanding representative of all Uyghurs worldwide. There's also definitely an association between the WUC and cultural/ethnic preservation of Uyghurs, with the WUC playing a leading role. As a review published in Asian Studies Review notes, Xinjiang, northwest China, has been home to the Uyghurs, a Turkic, Muslim ethnic minority, for the last millennium. To them, Xinjiang is known as “East Turkistan”, which literally means “country of the Turks”. Comprising around 50 per cent of the region’s population, the majority of Uyghurs are engaged in an ongoing struggle against the Chinese state to preserve their identity and culture. This struggle has long since been taken up by the Uyghur diaspora. In recent years the World Uyghur Congress (WUC), established in 2004 in Munich, Germany, and led by its most prominent activist, Rebiya Kadeer, has established itself as the most well-known and influential organisation within this movement. Other sources describe the WUC's President as the top leader of exiled Uighur activists. I don't think that pigeonholing the flag as one that symbolizes only a Uyghur nationalist independence movement is quite right given the flag's general use by Uyghur groups worldwide (as well as the WUC's lack of an explicit pro-independence stance). — Mikehawk10 (talk) 22:14, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.