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Request to edit

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

Hello, this navbox is quite outdated and shows visible confusion between Philip Morris International (PMI) and Philip Morris USA (PM USA): both companies are independent, though they share a common name as well as a number of brands. In short, and as the name indicates PMI operates internationally whereas PM USA operates solely in the US.


Existing text	Revised text	Reason for suggested change
Brands [32 brands listed]	[29 brands]	Form, Juwel and S.T. Dupont have been discontinued.
Litigation: A.D. Bedell · Altria Group, Inc. v. Good · Imperial Group · Naugle · Uruguay · Williams	Imperial Group · PMI v. Uruguay	All four cases (Bedell, Altria v. Good, Naugle, and Williams) pertain to cases related to the sale of tobacco in the United States (the last two explicitly indicate Philip Morris USA in the article name; Altria is PM USA’s parent company). Clarified the Uruguay link, added italics as per convention
People: André Calantzopoulos · Philip Morris · Michael A. Miles · James J. Morgan · Jacek Olczak · Frank E. Resnik · Ragnar Rylander · Michael Szymanczyk	André Calantzopoulos · Louis Camilleri · Philip Morris · Jacek Olczak	Miles, Morgan, Resnik and Szymanczyk worked at Altria or Philip Morris USA. Ragnar Rylander is the odd one out as he did consult for PMI but can hardly be considered part of the senior management. I added Louis Camilleri, which did work as CEO of PMI and headed the spin-off from Altria.
Media: "Tobacco" (Last Week Tonight) · Philip Morris Playhouse	Marlboro Man · "Tobacco" (Last Week Tonight)	The Philip Morris Playhouse took place 1939-1953: Philip Morris International did not exist back then. The Marlboro Man, on the other hand, has been present internationally.
Related: Philip Morris USA · Marlboro M hoax · Altria · External Research Program	Altria · Marlboro Friday · External Research Program · Philip Morris USA	Names are now sorted alphabetically. The Marlboro M hoax is again US-centric. Marlboro Friday, on the other hand, while also US-centric had a global impact (the brand is also part of PMI’s portfolio).

Here is the edited box text:

Thanks, Damien Shirley (talk) 09:19, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reply 17-OCT-2023

Edit request declined

The COI editor has stated Philip Morris International (PMI) and Philip Morris USA (PM USA): both companies are independent, though they share a common name as well as a number of brands. In short, and as the name indicates PMI operates internationally whereas PM USA operates solely in the US. No references have been provided for these claims.
Although references are not included as part of the template itself, the COI editor must still provide references which substantiate any and all claims and reasons given within the request.

Regards, Spintendo 19:26, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello and thank you for your feedback: references are provided in each and every article, starting with the lead section of both companies' respective entries as far as the spinoff goes. But here is a Reuters article [1].

The main issue I see with your request for references relates to the brands that were discontinued. There rarely is media available relating to this kind of non-event (the only exception I could find being Juwel), but on the other hand anyone present in these markets can verify that these are not sold anymore. Discussing evidence of absence, however, is a little bit above my paygrade and I will leave it to reviewers to assume good faith or not on that particular point.

Happy to hear a second opinion, though: user:GoingBatty was kind enough to review another request I made, maybe they'll be able to weigh in one way or the other. Best regards, Damien Shirley (talk) 16:06, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Damien Shirley: Since there is an overlap between PMI and PM USA, another solution could be to change the header to include both companies and leave the rest of the template as is. GoingBatty (talk) 18:14, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with GoingBatty, the template's header ought to include both companies. To that end, the COI editor may wish to construct a Child navbox to place within the template's current {{navbox}}. The child navbox would contain information pertinent to PM-USA, while the adult navbox would retain those associated with PMI (which the COI editor has already created). That would offer additional help in delineating the difference between the two companies while still ensuring that all of this information remains under the same Philip Morris-brandname. Regards, Spintendo 18:52, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you both for your quick reply.

The main reason for my request is to clear-up any confusion between two distinct companies that unfortunately share a similar name. Having a single box would definitely not help, as well as go against what I noticed to be current practice, e.g. {{Merck&Co}} and {{Merck Group}}, or {{Mondelez}} and {{The Kraft Heinz Company}} (there may be others but you get the idea).

Seeing the later and how it was handled, I notice that Altria also has its own box and that it rightfully includes the PM USA brands (PM USA is a subsidiary whereas PMI and Altria are public companies: those two should be seen at the same level).

@Spintendo @GoingBatty Would that be okay if I made an update proposal to the Altria box to include relevant PM USA information from here, and then we could proceed with the changes here? Thanks, Damien Shirley (talk) 08:40, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Damien Shirley: You may make whatever proposal you like. GoingBatty (talk) 13:12, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@GoingBatty I have gone ahead with the request on the Altria template. Thanks. Damien Shirley (talk) 12:59, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Request to edit

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

Following up a request made at {{Altria}} where I was asked to request my edit here instead. The overall idea is to clear up the confusion between Altria (and it subsidiary Philip Morris USA) and Philip Morris International (a public company that was spun-off about 15 years ago and is now fully independent from the former - I am a PMI employee). The Philip Morris International template lists a bunch of things that are unrelated to the company, so I'd like to suggest moving these to the Altria navbox before we can implement the changes requested above.

Here is what the updated Altria template would look like (with a few comments below as to what has changed):

Added People, Litigation and Media subsections to the PM USA section (which only listed brands until now)
Grouped Ste Michelle Wine EstateS, JUUL, Nat Sherman and NJOY into a new Subsidiaries section. The wine estate and Nat Sherman were one-brand sections, NJOY was incorrectly included into the US Smokeless section, and JUUL was missing
Added the Company HQ to a newly-created Related section.

Based on what I have seen with {{Merck&Co}} and {{Merck Group}} (two other companies with the same name) I chose not to add PMI into the related section as the whole idea is to indicate that both companies are not related (other examples I could find include {{DuPont}} (formerly DowDupont) which does not mention Dow Chemicals, though {{Dow Chemical Company}} does). This being said, if reviewers would still want to include a mention of PMI then I'd advocate using the term See also instead of Related.

Here is what the present PMI template should look like after the above migration has been done:

Thank you, Damien Shirley (talk) 14:39, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The overall idea is to clear up the confusion between Altria (and it subsidiary Philip Morris USA) and Philip Morris International (a public company that was spun-off about 15 years ago and is now fully independent from the former To be clear, Philip Morris changed its name to Altria. There is, now, a subdivision known as Philip Morris — but your implication that Philip Morris is some sort of minor subsidiary when in fact they are Altria, needs to be addressed.^[a] Now you stated above that having only one labeled PM template was confusing (ostensibly for readers who confused PMI for PMUSA) and that this change clears up that confusion. What would really clear up any confusion would be to have one PM template with both companies or two PM templates on the separate companies. Your changes keep the status quo by still having one PM template — but this time you're merely shifting the confusion to people who will now mistake PMI for PMUSA. I look forward to your feedback. Please switch the template to answered when ready to proceed. Thank you!

Notes

^ By stating a public company that was spun-off about 15 years ago and is now fully independent you're somehow implying that PMI, which is "a fully independent company" is superior to (and deserving of carrying the PM name in the template) because PMUSA is not independent. PMUSA was and continues to be an independent company just as much as PMI is — only PMUSA is named Altria.

Regards, Spintendo 00:44, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your feedback. PMUSA is now a division of Altria, probably its largest one, but it still is a division within that bigger company, at the end of the day. I will let a PMI USA employee decide if they want to suggest their own navbox.

On a side note, there's a whole story of M&A and name-changing to be written here: Philip Morris became Philip Morris Companies after it purchased Kraft Foods Inc. in the 80's (the PMI and PMUSA divisions were also created around that time from what I could gather). Philip Morris Companies then rebranded as Altria when it spun Kraft off in the early 00's, and then further shed its international division a year or so later. We end up going from one to four independent multi-billion dollar companies (and as many navboxes) within a few years as Kraft further shed its snacks division now renamed Mondelez. Damien Shirley (talk) 08:28, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]