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Los Negros are missing. 97.124.255.168 (talk) 06:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-09-15T06:29:00.000Z","author":"97.124.255.168","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-97.124.255.168-2009-09-15T06:29:00.000Z-Los_Negros","replies":["c-BatteryIncluded-2009-09-15T14:58:00.000Z-97.124.255.168-2009-09-15T06:29:00.000Z"]}}-->

Los Negros are the armed wing of the sinaloa cartel; they are not "a cartel" like Los Zetas are. Anyway, I made an additional note under Sinaloa Cartel. Thank you! BatteryIncluded (talk) 14:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-09-15T14:58:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2009-09-15T14:58:00.000Z-97.124.255.168-2009-09-15T06:29:00.000Z","replies":["c-BatteryIncluded-2009-12-24T05:34:00.000Z-BatteryIncluded-2009-09-15T14:58:00.000Z"]}}-->

Thank you for updating the switch of alliances of the Beltran Leyva + La Barbie + Los Negros.

All I found about the Antrax gunmen are songs; not a good supporting reference. --BatteryIncluded (talk) 05:34, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-12-24T05:34:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2009-12-24T05:34:00.000Z-BatteryIncluded-2009-09-15T14:58:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Los Zetas have turned against its employer/partner, the Gulf Cartel. Although there have been rumors recently, there are now official reports of massive confontations between them in recent weeks, mostly in the state of Tamaulipas. [1], [2] I will modify the relevant articles to reflect this new and confirmed development. --BatteryIncluded (talk) 20:40, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-03-04T20:40:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2010-03-04T20:40:00.000Z-Los_Zetas_turn_on_the_Gulf_Cartel","replies":[]}}-->

I see that Sergio Villarreal Barragán was removed from the list today, after his arrest. I am concerned that this practice will dismantle the knowledge that is represented in the template. We need some way to represent "disabled members" or "former members" for each group.

Maybe when a person is dead/arrested/retired, their name goes into italics -- and we make that clear at the top of the template? 128.59.180.159 (talk) 03:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-09-13T03:23:00.000Z","author":"128.59.180.159","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-128.59.180.159-2010-09-13T03:23:00.000Z-When_someone_is_arrested_or_killed,_I_do_not_think_we_should_remove_them_from_th","replies":["c-BatteryIncluded-2010-09-13T13:13:00.000Z-128.59.180.159-2010-09-13T03:23:00.000Z"]}}-->

That is a good idea. I will get into it. Thanks, --BatteryIncluded (talk) 13:13, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-09-13T13:13:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2010-09-13T13:13:00.000Z-128.59.180.159-2010-09-13T03:23:00.000Z","replies":["c-128.59.181.59-2010-09-13T15:43:00.000Z-BatteryIncluded-2010-09-13T13:13:00.000Z"]}}-->

Sweet! Fantastic work. (Also, it's nice to see how many individuals are dead and arrested!) -128.59.180.159, perhaps on a new IP as 128.59.181.59 (talk) 15:43, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-09-13T15:43:00.000Z","author":"128.59.181.59","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-128.59.181.59-2010-09-13T15:43:00.000Z-BatteryIncluded-2010-09-13T13:13:00.000Z","replies":["c-BatteryIncluded-2010-09-29T17:48:00.000Z-128.59.181.59-2010-09-13T15:43:00.000Z"]}}-->

People keep putting dead leaders as if they are still in charge. If they are dead, how can they be a leader?

If you read the template someday, you will see this at the top: "Names in italics represent dead or arrested individuals." --BatteryIncluded (talk) 17:48, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-09-29T17:48:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2010-09-29T17:48:00.000Z-128.59.181.59-2010-09-13T15:43:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

I added in the word current before the leaders. Dead or extradited leaders should not go here. It is for the current capos. When a person is killed or extradited remove them. If they are running the show from jail, or suspected to be, leave them. I find it annoying that Amado Carrillo Fuentes was listed as the leader of the Juarez Cartel when he has (all conspiracy theories aside) been dead for thirteen years. Osiel is in prision in the U.S. Nacho is dead. I took them off the template. And I like the Italics system, but a dead guy is not a leader. Put them in Italics and put them with the founders of a cartel, if they were founders. Osiel, for example is neither a founder or a current leader. This will not dismante the knowledge, it will keep it current. Besides if Amado is listed as a leader why not Pablo Acosta etc? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.177.8.250 (talk) 19:55, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-09-29T19:55:00.000Z","author":"198.177.8.250","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-198.177.8.250-2010-09-29T19:55:00.000Z-When_someone_is_arrested_or_killed,_I_do_not_think_we_should_remove_them_from_th","replies":["c-BatteryIncluded-2010-09-30T14:22:00.000Z-198.177.8.250-2010-09-29T19:55:00.000Z","c-BatteryIncluded-2010-09-30T14:43:00.000Z-198.177.8.250-2010-09-29T19:55:00.000Z"]}}-->

Incorrect in all accounts. The navigation template does not have to be limited to current leaders. Past leaders are mentioned in italics; this format is very clear and and provides historical information of the cartel leadership. Reducing information by excluding these names does not serve, as ex-leaders like Osiel Cardenas, Gallardo, Quintero, Palma, Garcia Abrego, etc. whether alive, dead or in jail, prompted the mess we see today, therefore they will remain in the template (italized) for their historic value.

To answer your other questions, Amado was not a founder, and he became the leader only after assasinating his boss and founder Rafael Aguilar Guajardo. Pablo Acosta has always been listed as a past Juarez cartel leader. Cheers, --BatteryIncluded (talk) 14:22, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-09-30T14:22:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2010-09-30T14:22:00.000Z-198.177.8.250-2010-09-29T19:55:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Update: According to Beith, Malcolm (2010). The Last Narco. New York, New York: Grove Press. pp. 47. ISBN 978-0-8021-1952-0, Amado Carrillo was a cofounder in the mid 80's so I made that change. Cheers. --BatteryIncluded (talk) 14:43, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-09-30T14:43:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2010-09-30T14:43:00.000Z-198.177.8.250-2010-09-29T19:55:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

BatteryIncluded: You recently removed his name from the template stating that he is not wanted by U.S. or Mexican authorities and does not appear to be involved in cartel activities. However, at least one credible article states that Mexican authorities believe the cartel is being run by sister of the brothers, Enedina, and her son Luis. Obviously thats not a definitive "Yes," but very few things regarding top-level traffickers in Mexico are (at least in public record). Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7692319.stm jlcoving (talk) 22:10, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-09-17T22:10:00.000Z","author":"Jlcoving","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Jlcoving-2010-09-17T22:10:00.000Z-Luis_Fernando_Arellano_F\u00e9lix","replies":["c-BatteryIncluded-2010-09-17T22:22:00.000Z-Jlcoving-2010-09-17T22:10:00.000Z"]}}-->

Hello. Please note that Luis Fernando Arellano Félix and Luis Fernando Sánchez Arellano (Enedina's son and new leader) are different individuals. I hope this resolves your question. Thanks, --BatteryIncluded (talk) 22:22, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-09-17T22:22:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2010-09-17T22:22:00.000Z-Jlcoving-2010-09-17T22:10:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

I got detailed information from this book: Beith, Malcolm (2010). The Last Narco. New York, New York: Grove Press. p. 47. ISBN 978-0-8021-1952-0.

"Miguel Ángel Félix Gallardo kept a low profile and in 1987 he moved with his family Guadalajara city. "The Godfather" then decided to divide up the trade he controlled as it would be more efficient and less likely to be brought down in one law enforcement swoop. In a way, he was privatizing the Mexican drug business while sending it back underground, to be run by bosses who were less well known or not yet known by the DEA. Félix Gallardo "The Godfather" convened the nation's top drug narcos at a house in the resort of Acapulco where he designated the plazas or territories. The Tijuana route would go to the Arellano Felix brothers. The Ciudad Juárez route would go to the Carrillo Fuentes family. Miguel Caro Quintero would run the Sonora corridor. The control of the Matamoros, Tamaulipas corridor - then becoming the Gulf Cartel- would be left undisturbed to Juan García Abrego. Meanwhile, Joaquín Guzmán Loera and Ismael Zambada García would take over Pacific coast operations, becoming the Sinaloa Cartel. Guzmán and Zambada brought veteran Héctor Luis Palma Salazar back into the fold. Félix Gallardo still planned to oversee national operations, he had the contacts so he was still the top man, but he would no longer control all details of the business."

The book is well sourced and has been reviewed by expert George Grayson. The information seems very reliable. --BatteryIncluded (talk) 18:26, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-09-19T18:26:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2010-09-19T18:26:00.000Z-Origin_of_the_Mexican_cartels","replies":["c-Jlcoving-2010-09-21T19:47:00.000Z-BatteryIncluded-2010-09-19T18:26:00.000Z"]}}-->

Good book, I went and got it yesterday. Thanks for recommendation, I had no idea there was a book out about El Chapo (in English).jlcoving (talk) 19:47, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-09-21T19:47:00.000Z","author":"Jlcoving","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Jlcoving-2010-09-21T19:47:00.000Z-BatteryIncluded-2010-09-19T18:26:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Is there any particular reason why the "(Names in italics represent dead or arrested individuals)" notice is at both the top and bottom of the template? It seems a bit redundant. I suggest that this notice should be removed from the bottom of the template to make it look cleaner. Wingman4l7 (talk) 01:56, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-02-05T01:56:00.000Z","author":"Wingman4l7","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Wingman4l7-2011-02-05T01:56:00.000Z-Redundant_notice?","replies":[]}}-->

 Done --BatteryIncluded (talk) 20:40, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-02-06T20:40:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2011-02-06T20:40:00.000Z-Redundant_notice?","replies":[]}}-->

This needs to be updated to include CIDA, Cartel de Beltran Leyva is now known as CPS, Templarios have splintered from La Familia, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.23.233.42 (talk) 22:56, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-05-28T22:56:00.000Z","author":"76.23.233.42","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-76.23.233.42-2011-05-28T22:56:00.000Z-Needs_to_be_updated","replies":[]}}-->

It's a bad idea for us to have links to individuals we're identifying as "corrupt" and not have articles (with reliable sources, naturally) that support the claims that they can fairly be described as such. Right now the template lists three "corrupt officials" with redlinks for their articles:

• Ricardo Gutiérrez Vargas
• Rodolfo de la Guardia García
• Francisco Navarro Espinoza

Do we have articles for these folks (perhaps under different spellings of their name)? If not, we need to remove the redlinks until we have articles, due to our obligations under WP:BLP. I did do a little looking around about the first person and found this 2008 article, but that only says he was arrested. We can't fairly describe a living person as "corrupt" without their being convicted, particularly in a context-free and un-nuanced environment like a raw list like this. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 16:56, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-10T16:56:00.000Z","author":"Finlay McWalter","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Finlay_McWalter-2012-05-10T16:56:00.000Z-Redlinks_to_named_\"corrupt\"_individuals","replies":["c-BatteryIncluded-2012-05-10T17:45:00.000Z-Finlay_McWalter-2012-05-10T16:56:00.000Z"]}}-->

 Done. BatteryIncluded (talk) 17:45, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-10T17:45:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2012-05-10T17:45:00.000Z-Finlay_McWalter-2012-05-10T16:56:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Should this book be added? I'm pretty sure this is the only book of the Mexican Drug War on Wikipedia. ComputerJA (talk) 21:07, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-11T21:07:00.000Z","author":"ComputerJA","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-ComputerJA-2012-05-11T21:07:00.000Z-El_Narco:_Inside_Mexico's_Criminal_Insurgency","replies":["c-BatteryIncluded-2012-05-12T03:56:00.000Z-ComputerJA-2012-05-11T21:07:00.000Z"]}}-->

Why not? BatteryIncluded (talk) 03:56, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-12T03:56:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2012-05-12T03:56:00.000Z-ComputerJA-2012-05-11T21:07:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

I placed the 'List of journalists killed in the Mexican Drug War' under massacres, but it may as well sit fine under other. What do you think? BatteryIncluded (talk) 23:37, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-19T23:37:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2012-05-19T23:37:00.000Z-Journalists_killed","replies":["c-ComputerJA-2012-05-20T01:46:00.000Z-BatteryIncluded-2012-05-19T23:37:00.000Z"]}}-->

Under the 'massacres' section is fine. It keeps it a lot more organized, IMO. ComputerJA (talk) 01:46, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-05-20T01:46:00.000Z","author":"ComputerJA","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-ComputerJA-2012-05-20T01:46:00.000Z-BatteryIncluded-2012-05-19T23:37:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

We need to find references to who is the current Gulf Cartel leader. The template lists: Osiel Cárdenas Guillén, Antonio Cárdenas Guillén, Jorge Eduardo Costilla Sánchez,

but they alll have been neutralized. BatteryIncluded (talk) 16:49, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-12T16:49:00.000Z","author":"BatteryIncluded","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-BatteryIncluded-2012-10-12T16:49:00.000Z-Current_Gulf_Cartel_leader?","replies":["c-ComputerJA-2012-10-17T08:51:00.000Z-BatteryIncluded-2012-10-12T16:49:00.000Z"]}}-->

• Sorry for the late reply. I didn't catch it on my watchlist till now.

Nothing is known for sure, but Mario Ramírez Treviño is probably the leader of the Gulf Cartel, although other reports allege that it may be one of Osiel's sisters (yeah, I don't think so either). [3] ComputerJA (talk) 08:51, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-10-17T08:51:00.000Z","author":"ComputerJA","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-ComputerJA-2012-10-17T08:51:00.000Z-BatteryIncluded-2012-10-12T16:49:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->